Animal Rights/vegetarians

[Mistress Siana]

@ Jessica:
Cool, so I'm not the only one!!

[Neo]

One question, don't you get tired of vegetables?

[Paul]

btw, Paul, thanks and respect to you!! Most forums don't allow political or religious discussions.

Thanks Mistress Siana and Neo too. Political or religious stuff is welcome here - I've got no problem with big subjects like that at all, as long as there's no serious fighting or abuse against anyone.

Regarding the issues raised here, I was also a little concerned when I first read about wizards turning animals into pin-cushions and other types of inanimate objects. There was a Horizon (science documentary thing) program on BBC TV on 5th February 2003 about near-death experiences, in which a scientific theory which could provide possible answers was aired.

Basically there is scientific theory that there may be a quantum-level explanation of consciousness which could explain how consciousness (or what may be described as the soul) may be able to continue after death.

Quantum theory itself is totally weird. The first thing I ever learned about it was reading a science magazine about 10 years ago about the light interference strangeness which the following page describes:

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition ... 65,00.html

The strangeness is highlighted by the second paragraph on that page (particularly the final sentence of the second paragraph).

I'm definitely not anything near an expert in this, but from the light interference thing, quantum mechanics continues on a very weird but highly scientific basis, to go on to theorise about the possibilities of parallel universes and other seemingly impossible things.

The theory discussed in the Horizon program was along the lines that within the brain, protein assemblies called microtubules are viewed as self-organizing quantum computers. Microtubule subunits (tubulins) are coupled to internal quantum events, and cooperatively interact (compute) with other tubulins.

An important part of the theory is:

Another feature of quantum systems is quantum inseparability, or non-locality, which implies that all quantum objects that have once interacted are in some sense still connected!

Quoted from http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/ha ... 0Paper.htm

Taking all this into consideration, if death occurs (or if an animal is transformed into an inanimate object), somewhere, somehow, the inseparability properties of quantum systems could mean that their "consciousness" or soul is still connected together somewhere/somehow/someuniverse/somedimension, regardless of whether it needs to inhabit another body or the inanimate object itself (which presumably could not feel pain as a pincushion does not have pain receptors).

There are some theories which do agree with Sonkem's idea that inanimate objects may even have consciousness. According to physicist,David Bohm, in a quote from:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/jse.htm

He argues that consciousness is rooted deep in the implicate order, and is therefore present to some degree in all material forms. He suggests that there may be an infinite series of implicate orders, each having both a matter aspect and a consciousness aspect: "everything material is also mental and everything mental is also material, but there are many more infinitely subtle levels of matter than we are aware of" (Weber, 1990, p. 151).

So the Weasleys' car could indeed have a consciousness of its own, and even Moody's dustbins too!

More information about David Bohm can be found at http://www.muc.de/~heuvel/bohm/ and http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/sci ... at-boh.htm

More info about quantum physics and consciousness can be found at:

http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/v2/psych ... stapp.html

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/ha ... ations.htm

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/hameroff/

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/ha ... 0Paper.htm

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/ha ... rence.html

and a pdf (adobe acrobat reader required) file at
http://pw1.netcom.com/~wolfpapers/myart ... Deepak.pdf

By the way, I was a vegetarian for a year between about March 1986 and the about spring 1987. Gave it up though as it takes a lot of planning to ensure you get the right protein and nutrients, and I ended up feeling really physically tired.

[Neo]

Wow, thanks for the information Paul, I've never heard of it, I will read a lot more about it (it sounds fascinating).
But then, as far as I understood the level of consciousness varies, but is never eliminated. But then why wizards and witches can manipulate this level of consciousness as they want. I mean if I were a turtle I wouldn't like having the level of conscious of a cup for example, or of another animal like a rat. (and in case I have the level of conscious of a turtle in a cup form it doesn't sounds like a great time)
And it just occur to me, that what if a ferret is transfigurated into a human being?, which would be te level of conscious would it have?

[Scellanis]

but does the turtle realise it has been turned into a cup.....i mean...does the cup ever realise that it used to be a turtle a few minutes ago??

[Neo]

Well certainly Draco knew he was a ferret for a couple of minutes.

[Scellanis]

yeah i suppose.....i can just see it...a load of tea cups and pin cushions plotting all kinds of revenge on witches and wizards around the world

[Paul]

Wow, thanks for the information Paul, I've never heard of it, I will read a lot more about it (it sounds fascinating).

It's something I wish I knew a lot more about too. Ever since I first heard about quantum theory it's something that has amazed and entralled me with the possibilities that this universe (and possibly others) could hold.

I were a turtle I wouldn't like having the level of conscious of a cup for example, or of another animal like a rat. (and in case I have the level of conscious of a turtle in a cup form it doesn't sounds like a great time)

My take on this would be that provided the object could satisfactorily accommodate the consciousness, then the consciousness could remain. Therfore, if a turtle was transformed into a rat, it would still have the original consciousness of the turtle. What "satisfactorily accommodate" (my own phrase, not a scienfific theory) could mean though is an intriguing question. Could the atoms or sub-atomic particles in a cup satifactorily accommodate human (or animal) consciousness? If the answer is yes, then yes, the cup would know it had been a turtle because the consciousness is simply now residing in the cup "body" rather than the turtle body. So in this scenario, all the vengeful pincushions would exist.

Certainly there could be a situation where the conscousness is forced outside the body/object. For example in out-of-body experiences, where brain death has occurred for very short periods, patients have reported to be outside the body looking down on it, but when the body/brain is revived there are reports of people feeling compelled to return to the body to carry out the rest of their life.

So maybe if, in the Harry Potter world, your body is transformed into a cup or other unsuitable object, your human (or animal) consciousness can go elsewhere in a similar way to near-death experiences.

However, if your human body is transformed into an animal (ie you still have a brain for your consciousness to inhabit) then, like Draco and Peter Pettigrew, your human counsciousness resides in the animal brain (bear in mind that scientists do say that we only use 10% of our human brains so your actual consciousness may only need small brain-space to inhabit).

Wth regard to the question about what would happen if a creature that was originally a ferrett was transformed into a human - well, I think the human body would just have a ferret consciousness. Not very good marks in Hogwarts tests in other words.

[Neo]

Not very good marks in Hogwarts tests in other words.[/quote]
that's a good point, so a cup transfigurated into a human wouldn't be able to move for example.

yeah i suppose.....i can just see it...a load of tea cups and pin cushions plotting all kinds of revenge on witches and wizards around the world

then wizards most me careful to use brand new pin cushions to practise.

So maybe if, in the Harry Potter world, your body is transformed into a cup or other unsuitable object, your human (or animal) consciousness can go elsewhere in a similar way to near-death experiences

Then your conscious most follow the object you were transformed into, so when it recovers its original state it can enter again, then you have to be luchy to have a smart conscious.

[Neo]

It seems I must work in quote posting

[Mistress Siana]

One question, don't you get tired of vegetables?

don't you get tired of meat?

[azn wizard]

don't you get tired of meat?

we we intereat vege and meat....we dun eat all meat...

[Paul]

It seems I must work in quote posting

lol - you had me reading my own post again there - I was sure I hadn't written the brand new pin cushions bit, but had to double-check just in case.

[JessicaMalfoy]

I do eat chicken just not red meat.

[Neo]

I have trained in quoting so it seems I won't have problems again (I hope).

And yeah, I eat both meat and vegetables; but I mean there are less options in vegetables than in meat (in different ways to cook them I mean)

And not eating red meat is more common, there a lots of people that are not able to eat red meat because of health problems, but I have the feeling that isn't your problem Jessica.