Snape and DADA

[Claire]

I have no idea if this is discussed elsewhere, or if my same theory has been discussed elsewhere or any of that. My apologies of this is so, I didnt have much time.

So here is my theory.

A lot of the things Snape tells Bellatrix at the beginning seem like lies. That he thought they might all rally around Harry? Thats obviously not true becaues we know he hated Harry from the beginning. He thought LV was dead? He was around Dumbledore who was probably telling Snape that LV was definitely alive, so theres no way he thought LV dead. I forget the rest of what he said because I dont have the book with me, but I know he said the reason Dumbledore wouldnt give him the dark arts job was because he was afraid it might lure Snape back into the dark arts. Now that just seems like a weak reason to me. If DD trusts him, then he trusts him, none of that nonsense. Dumbledore knew that the job was jinxed after LV was refused it. Dumbledore wanted Snape to stay at Hogwarts...UNTIL this past year, where he knew Snape was going to have to kill him at the end, and therefore would not be able to stay at Hogwarts. Therefore it is LUCKY that Snape came when he did, so he could kill DD before any of the other Death Eaters did thus 'proving' his loyalty to LV and fulfilling his Unbreakable Vow or whatever. (Im sure its already been discussed that what Hagrid overheard Snape and DD argueing about was the need for Snape to eventually kill DD)

Does this make sense to anybody but me?

[carsten]

...Does this make sense to anybody but me?

To some extend: yes. But it is hard to imagine a person (DD) dealing with somebody (Snape) who is trying to kill him. I don't think DD is THAT big and SUCH a selfless person. He knew about his companions and that nobody in the order can replace him. So he wouldn't make plans t leave voluntarily. He knew that would be better to have him around.

[thestral]

i don't think DD planned his death that extensivly. surely IF snape is good and it was all part of the plan, it was a last ditch resort. i'm sure they had another plan that didn't result in DD's death.

[Augusta Longbottom]

Try to follow me here since we're all thinking different things about Dd's death and if he and Snape had some sort of agreement. I agree that it doesn't make a bit of sense that Dd would've just said "hey Snape, kill me if you need to, we can't have you blow your cover" LOL.

BUT....
now follow me...in real life adults may discuss with a spouse or someone close to them that *if* something happens what do they want done. For example: if I am placed on life support, do I want to stay on it for years and years, or do I wish them to pull the plug.

Now, knowing what kinds of things DD would be dealing with this year, he may have had this discussion with Snape, that *if* I am in such a predicament that no amount of Madam Pomfrey's cures can heal me, I will need you to do this. I believe this is why DD insisted to see Snape rather than Madam Pomfrey. I do believe that Snape may have done something gentler, like given DD a drink of something that would bring him to his last breath and thus kill him, but since DD never got to Snape alone, Snape did what he had to do in the presense of the other DE's and he killed 2 birds with one stone, he followed procedure with DD and he fullfilled his Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa by completing the task Draco was unable to do himself.

[Sara8830]

I believe that DD and Snape had the discussion that if needed, Snape would take DD life. When I first read the part of Snape killing DD I was shoked and missed some of the "action" that was going on. Snape's character would suggest that if he was in a position of power to kill someone, he would say something very snide and irritating to that person. Snape said nothing to DD... BUT... he did stare at him for a moment. It says Harry saw hatred on Snape's face... I think he misread Snape. I think at that very moment, DD knew he was going to die... either by the poison or whatever. I think DD let Snape perform Legilimency on him to tell Snape to kill him and get out of the castle. I think Snape was following orders... to bad DD couldn't have shared the truth with Harry in some secret way. Harry will always hate Snape for causing the death's of all the people he has ever cared about.

I don't think Snape is Good or Evil... just loyal to the Good side.

[selene]

it is easy to misinterpret the feelings on someones face, especialy if you hate that person
and snape had a very clear shot a killing harry and all he does is block his spells and tell him he should learn to close his mind. what's that about?

[Mistress Siana]

Well, Harry doesn't necessarily have needed to misinterpret the feelings on Snape's face. When Harry force-fed Dumbledore that potion, he felt exactly the same: hatred and revulsion. Only in his case, it was explained. Hatred at himself and revulsion at what he was doing. I think that's another hint that Snape also acted on DD's order, because generally, JKR uses such word repetitions with a purpose.

[Froggs]

Everyone keeps saying that Snape did nothing to Harry except repel his curses, maybe I've misread, but I thought for sure that Snape did something at the end of their confrontation that caused Harry pain...yes, just reread, Snape slashes the air and it causes HP to feel white hot pain. Maybe he was just frustrated at being called a Coward, but I think it goes on the "Snape is bad" side of the arguement.

[Froggs]

Plus HP was without his wand at the time...

[Athena Appleton]

I have no idea if this is discussed elsewhere, or if my same theory has been discussed elsewhere or any of that. My apologies of this is so, I didnt have much time.

So here is my theory.

A lot of the things Snape tells Bellatrix at the beginning seem like lies. That he thought they might all rally around Harry? Thats obviously not true becaues we know he hated Harry from the beginning.

He hated Harry because Harry was James's son, and he hated James. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't wondering if Harry was a great Dark Wizard. In fact, it could be that he felt a great resentment that the son of his enemy, that stupid, average, arrogant James Potter, would be the great Dark Wizard they would all rally around. When, after the first Potions lesson, Snape realizes there's nothing spectacular about this boy, that resentment and hate is confirmed and openly shown. He probably even had his doubts earlier than that, because it's quite possible that Malfoy told him that Harry was choosing to hang out with the likes of Ron Weasley, and anyone who would choose Ron over Malfoy for a friend was most likely not a dark wizard.

He thought LV was dead? He was around Dumbledore who was probably telling Snape that LV was definitely alive, so theres no way he thought LV dead.

Dumbledore knew nothing for sure until Goblet of Fire. While I'm sure he had his beliefs, so many people thought Voldemort was dead, it's not hard to imagine Snape did, too.

I forget the rest of what he said because I dont have the book with me, but I know he said the reason Dumbledore wouldnt give him the dark arts job was because he was afraid it might lure Snape back into the dark arts. Now that just seems like a weak reason to me. If DD trusts him, then he trusts him, none of that nonsense.

If you've ever known anyone who has an addiction, you know that you don't put them in a situation where they'll be tempted, whether you trust them or not. That's the truly caring thing to do.

Dumbledore knew that the job was jinxed after LV was refused it. Dumbledore wanted Snape to stay at Hogwarts...UNTIL this past year, where he knew Snape was going to have to kill him at the end, and therefore would not be able to stay at Hogwarts. Therefore it is LUCKY that Snape came when he did, so he could kill DD before any of the other Death Eaters did thus 'proving' his loyalty to LV and fulfilling his Unbreakable Vow or whatever. (Im sure its already been discussed that what Hagrid overheard Snape and DD argueing about was the need for Snape to eventually kill DD)

Does this make sense to anybody but me?

Yes and no. Yes, I understand it, but no, I don't agree with it. I thought the second chapter of HBP was the first time, really, that we saw Snape being actually truthful. Everything he said made sense to me. Even if you don't buy the "he thought Harry might be a great dark wizard" story, the "Dumbledore wouldn't have kept me around if I killed his favorite student" story makes perfect sense. Especially considering Snape's dark background, he couldn't afford to kill a student most people regarded as a hero and not expect to pay severe consequences.

As for the theory about Hagrid overhearing Snape and Dumbledore arguing about Dumbledore having to die, or whatever, I just don't think so. All theories have to be taken with a grain of salt, and it has to be said that most of them won't pan out.

[Mistress Siana]

I thought the second chapter of HBP was the first time, really, that we saw Snape being actually truthful. Everything he said made sense to me.

I strongly disagree on that. His story makes perfect sense as long as you don't give it a second thought, and it's apparently enough to satisfy Bella. If you look at it more closely, though, there are some very obvious holes in his story. I've tried to elaborate on that here.

[Tanuki]

I read your post and I have only one contention (I still hate Snape, so don't get your hopes up)

With the pensieve thing of the prophecy. We already know how the pensieve can show objective reality of the past instead of subjective reality. Therefore, the whole sequence with Snape would have been irrelovent since it had nothing to do with Trelawny's prediction, which the prophecy and the memory were specifically focused on. Anything seperate would have been Filtered out to preserve the purity of the memory. So long as Trelawny remained untouched while giving her prediction Snape could have held a parade through the room and, so long as Dumbledore heard it, the image would have remained unaffected

As for Voldermort trusting Snape; I don't believe he trusts anyone, even for a second. However, at the same time, he knows when to let a good thing be. He would not have needed to have given Snape orders at any point before HBP just so long as he fulfilled his role as double agent and kept him in data regarding DD and his faction.

The whole sequence with the MoM might have been a semi-bluff on Voldy's hands. Send in the cannon fodder while Bella or Lucious retrieve the prophecy. He may not trust those two, but they are certainly reliable peons

I don't know; I have never liked Snape, will never like Snape, and cannot forgive him anything. In the books, we have come to appreciate that a lot of the time, Harry and Ron's instincts have been pretty good most of the time and they have never trusted him.

Maybe the twist in the story is that maybe things are exactly what they seem

[Athena Appleton]

I thought the second chapter of HBP was the first time, really, that we saw Snape being actually truthful. Everything he said made sense to me.

I strongly disagree on that. His story makes perfect sense as long as you don't give it a second thought, and it's apparently enough to satisfy Bella. If you look at it more closely, though, there are some very obvious holes in his story. I've tried to elaborate on that here.

I am definately willing to plead ignorance for the time being. It's been a while since I've read through the first five books, and I've only read HBP once before having to pack it up, so you could very well be right. But I still think it's been made clear that Snape was playing Dumbledore the whole time. Not to mention, Rowling did seem to hint pretty strongly that Snape has now shown his true colors in HBP (see the mugglenet interview)

[Claire]

Dumbledore knew nothing for sure until Goblet of Fire. While I'm sure he had his beliefs, so many people thought Voldemort was dead, it's not hard to imagine Snape did, too.

No, he knew for sure Voldemort wasnt dead after the first book when he tried to steal the stone.

The rest of them are just based on opinions and what SEEMS right, and you have already heard my opinions and without the book I cant really argue them any more than I already have. There is, of course, the possibility that DD didnt tell Snape that Voldemort was still around, but I find that highly unlikely for several reasons, which I will expand upon if you ask. In any case, if he is lieing about just one thing, especially about whether or not he believed Voldemort dead, it seems likely he is lieing about more.

[Lelie]

In the books, we have come to appreciate that a lot of the time, Harry and Ron's instincts have been pretty good most of the time and they have never trusted him.

well, technically tanuki, that isn't true. the most interesting part of HBP for me was that even after everything happened with snape, harry couldn't contribute his feelings toward snape to the HBP who he considered a friend. throughout the entire book, hermione tried desperately to convince harry that the HBP was evil because she was afraid of a repeat of the diary incident. harry insisted that he wasn't evil.
my point is that once harry is free from the prejudice (by not knowing that snape is the HBP) he basically got from his father and sirius, he considers snape to be a genius, a friend, and misunderstood. just a thought...