The holes in Snape's story

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The holes in Snape's story

Postby Mistress Siana » Monday 1 August 2005 3:49:01am

Long post warning :-)

The story Snape tells Bellatrix when she accuses him of treachery seems to be the same story he told Voldemort, a bit shorter perhaps, but essentially, it's his explanation for his dubious behaviour.
Now, at first sight, Snape's story appears to be thoroughly plausible, but if you look at it more closely, the holes are evident.

1)Snape's explanation of why he took up his position at Hogwarts and the story Dumbledore tells Harry fit together very well, leaving the impression that Snape indeed "spun Dumbledore a tale of deepest remorse", namely that sending Voldemort after the Potters was the greatest regret of his life. However, if you include some 'outsider information' and a bit of logic, the whole story seems rather like cover-up tale.
We're supposed to believe that Snape overheard the first half of the prophecy, the half that oh-so-conveniently does NOT include the part that warns Voldemort of the child's power, and then was discovered by the bartender. But why does Trelawney, who fell in Trance and therefore doesn't remember her prophecy, remember Snape's interruption, if he was indeed thrown out before the prophecy ended? The memory Dumbledore showed Harry in the pensieve didn't include any signs of Snape either. So Snape must still have been there after the prophecy was over. Now Dumbledore, who, as we know, has to see the best in people, immediately deduced that Snape would carry that information to Voldemort, otherwise he wouldn't have sent the Potters into hiding. Nevertheless, Dumbledore did not arrest Snape or erase his memory, no, he let him run off to his master. Voldemort of course was delightened. Then, in his overlordly wisdom, he decided he could do with yet another spy, and of all his numerous Death Eaters, he chose Snape. Snape, who had just personally exposed himself as a Death Eater to Dumbledore, and not somebody unknown to the Order. And since Lupin said that, in the first war, the Order was outnumbered twenty to one by the Death Eaters, Voldemort had plenty to choose from. Anyway, Snape's sent to Dumbledore, explains how deeply he regrets having passed on that information, and Dumbledore, without further proof, welcoms him with open arms.
Why is it I don't believe that story?

If you put together all those facts, especially Trelawney's memory and the fact that Snape still only passed the conveniant first part of the prophecy, it seems to me as though 1) Snape indeed changed sides (as most people believe anyway), and 2) he changed side before the prophecy was made. That also fits better with the fact that Dumbledore states Snape changed sides *long* before Voldemort's fall. I now wonder if Dumbledore possibly wanted Voldemort to hear that explicit part of the prophecy, after all he'd never have disappeared that night in Godric's Hollow and marked Harry as his equal if he hadn't known. And Dumbledore seemed very reluctant to tell Harry the details of that particular incident, didn't he?

2)When asked about Dumbledore, Snape says this: "The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were."
This is very obviously a lie. We know from Dumbledore that it was Snape who helped him get rid of the ring, so Snape knew it was the ring that caused the injury. It had nothing to do with reactions. Can you imagine Dumbledore saying to Snape something along the lines of "My reactions have become much slower lately, so I had to put this very nasty ring on my finger. Honestly, it chased me! Damn thing." Of course...

3)And then, of course, there's the incident at the Ministry of Magic, or more precisely, the fact that Snape alerted the Order because of Harry's cryptic warning. It would have been so easy for him to say he hadn't understood a word.
To me, it seems as though Snape didn't know of Voldemort's plan to steal the prophecy. That makes most sense, even if Voldemort trusts him, considering Snape spent dangerously much time with Dumbledore and was supposed to teach Harry Occlumency, the risk of telling him would have been too high. I expect he contacted Voldemort after he contacted the Order and then recieved his orders to remain behind. Anyway, the fact that he had orders from Voldemort regarding that incident means that Voldemort knows Snape knew about the mission. Consequently, it is easy for Voldemort to deduce who alerted the Order of the Phoenix. And that is something that Snape, in my opinion, cannot explain.

So. Snape is lying to Voldemort, and the closer you look the more obvious the lies are. And I for one don't buy Voldemort unconditional trust in Snape, I didn't believe for one second that Wormtail was supposed to "assist" Snape. Can't it be that Voldemort did not trust Snape, but thought he was too valuable to be killed because Dumbledore trusted him? With Dumbledore dead, Snape has fulfilled that purpose, and Voldemort might change his attitude. Or do you believe the Dark Lord trusts so easily?
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Postby Imelyen » Monday 1 August 2005 4:13:41am

I agree whole-heartedly with everything you said...Points I came to a while ago when discussing this topic with my brother in fact...Dumbledore said Voldemort doesn't trust anyone. But he DOES reward his faithful servants. I just wonder how he was rewarded :-)
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Postby Tanuki » Monday 1 August 2005 11:52:13am

I think the theory is a bunch of Codswallop and hope Harry gives him what he deserves in teh end.. a nice cursing out of existence
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Postby Dacre » Monday 1 August 2005 4:06:45pm

2)When asked about Dumbledore, Snape says this: "The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were."
This is very obviously a lie. We know from Dumbledore that it was Snape who helped him get rid of the ring, so Snape knew it was the ring that caused the injury. It had nothing to do with reactions. Can you imagine Dumbledore saying to Snape something along the lines of "My reactions have become much slower lately, so I had to put this very nasty ring on my finger. Honestly, it chased me! Damn thing." Of course


I agree with all you say, and it all makes total sense, except this point 2. DD's reactions are getting slower - he is getting old. When he puts the ring on, ready to counter it's effects, he is slow enough that he can't save his hand.
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Postby Lelie » Monday 1 August 2005 6:37:46pm

in OoTP, snape tells umbridge that he has been working at hyogwarts for fourteen years. at that particular point, harry is fifteen years old. that gives a pretty fuzzy timeline to decide for sure either way who he was working for at the time.
however, dd has been pretty honest with harry, and knowing how upset he was about snape being the one to pass on the prophecy, i think that dd would have set him straight as to why that happened if snape had done it to help the order in some way. dd wouldn't have let the grudge get larger between harry and snape if he could help it.
i don't believe that the only reason dd trusted snape was the whole business about him feeling bad. i'm SURE there is more. but i don't think they were on the same side yet.
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Postby Mistress Siana » Monday 1 August 2005 8:31:55pm

Wow, Tanuki, your thought-through argument definitely convinced me.

the_truth_hurts wrote: i think that dd would have set him straight as to why that happened if snape had done it to help the order in some way. dd wouldn't have let the grudge get larger between harry and snape if he could help it.


Hm, I don't think so. We all know what a poor Occlumens Harry is, so any information on what Snape might have done for the Order would be dangerous, considering the connection Harry and Voldemort share.
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Postby Tanuki » Monday 1 August 2005 10:32:37pm

Then why did Dumbledore give Harry as much information as he did. Surely, if Harry is so inferior as you claim, any data passing through his head would end up in Voldermort's hands for him to use at a whim
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Postby Dutchess42 » Monday 8 August 2005 1:51:50am

2)When asked about Dumbledore, Snape says this: "The duel with the Dark Lord last month shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his reactions are slower than they once were."
This is very obviously a lie. We know from Dumbledore that it was Snape who helped him get rid of the ring, so Snape knew it was the ring that caused the injury. It had nothing to do with reactions.


Maybe it did.
Suppose Dumbledore sustained the injury while he and Snape were disposing of the ring and at some point in the procedure Dumbledore was not swift enough. Like Dacre said.
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Postby Person1 » Monday 8 August 2005 4:35:31pm

Theory, Ginny read the book of Tom Riddle, and became well, cursed by it.

Now what if DD putting on the ring, made him a horcrux, by transfering the magic? Nobody ever said what the ring did, when it was put on DD hand, all that is known is it had to be blasted off.
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Postby Dutchess42 » Monday 8 August 2005 5:54:11pm

I've just read a very compelling editorial here:

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-jcutler01.shtml

Which further persuades me that Snape is Dumbledore's man.

(I've posted this elsewhere as well)
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Postby Person1 » Monday 8 August 2005 6:08:22pm

Hye so i wan't the only one who thoughtthe lines of revulsion was from Snape hating to do wha he did :)
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Postby Dutchess42 » Monday 8 August 2005 6:43:31pm

Person1 wrote:Hye so i wan't the only one who thoughtthe lines of revulsion was from Snape hating to do wha he did :)


No, you were certainly not the only one.
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Postby Eol » Sunday 4 September 2005 7:11:54pm

This is the first time i've noticed the wording of that scene. But it makes a fantastic twist in the story. I did however wonder why Snape merely blocked the spells Harry threw at him, all the while telling him he needs to learn how to cast spells without speaking. Why did Snape hate so much being called a coward? Because by killing Dumbledore he's given up a life among society, a brave act. I'm hoping Snape is really on the good side. It seems perfectly like Dumbledore to make Snape promise to kill him and then hold him to it when Snape got cold feet.
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Postby Tanuki » Sunday 4 September 2005 11:23:42pm

I got a better theory. Why would Snape go to Dumbledore in the first place? I can only think someone like him would join with the stronger faction in the hopes of advancing himself (Remember the end of book 3). He always held stock in Dumbledore's strength and relied on it. When he saw Dumbledore last, he was weak and beaten. Snape's hero was a pathetic mess, and Snape felt disgusted in Dumbledore and himself for ever havingf relied in Dumbledore, and since teh situation called for it, he decided to side with the stronger fasction again, and killed Dumbledore
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Postby Dutchess42 » Monday 5 September 2005 1:16:03am

Tanuki wrote:I got a better theory. Why would Snape go to Dumbledore in the first place? I can only think someone like him would join with the stronger faction in the hopes of advancing himself (Remember the end of book 3). He always held stock in Dumbledore's strength and relied on it. When he saw Dumbledore last, he was weak and beaten. Snape's hero was a pathetic mess, and Snape felt disgusted in Dumbledore and himself for ever havingf relied in Dumbledore, and since teh situation called for it, he decided to side with the stronger fasction again, and killed Dumbledore



Oy!!

I wish this didn't make so much sense, Tanuki, but it does.

ouch
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