SPEW

[Mistress Siana]

We're talking about books here. Fiction. Things filtered through Harry's eyes are the only things we're ever going to see, and what we see, what conclusions we have to draw is what JKR wants us to see. I wouldn't be so arrogant to jugde a whole existant culture based on a television report, but if you're talking about a made up world, it's just absurd to say that it's just one point of view, society is in fact rather different from what we are presented. It wouldn't make sense to portray a questionable society throughout 5 books, just to destroy that picture in the end and say it all really sweet and perfect and butterflies.[/i]

[Tanuki]

Even fiction is allows to be biased.

[Hagger 9003]

freedom is interesting, and so is SPEW. is dobby insane, or has he come to his senses? we'll never know. also, we never know something is wrong until everyone goes against it. history is written by the winners. the winners are pro-freedom, but how do we know they are right? you have to think about things yourselves. often, slavery can be a good thing, or at least being a servant. many people in the colonies had servants because it gave them better lodging and kind people to work for, even if the pay wasnt brilliant. also, slavery was not always bad. people would be kind to slaves, and often doing things inside a house is alot nicer than being in the real world. maybe this is why the house elves like to be inside houses, and maybe slavery is just a way of doing this. house elves seem to prefer it inside their masters home more than anywhere else, so maybe that is why they like to be enslaved. however, they dont really know about the outside world, so while it is scary, maybe if they become used to it, they will prefer it... its all really a matter of opinion. hermione shouldnt force house elves to be free, because although once they realise what the outside world is like, being freed is very stressfull, and they might not want to go outside at all. hermione should encourage them to take a voyage of discovery, but only if they want to.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

I agree with absolutely everything Hermione has done with SPEW.
Except hiding the clothing around the Gryffindor common room. If elves want to be free, let them be free, if they don't, encourage them to. But simply tricking them into it is low, and just wrong. She has the right intentions, but is going about it the wrong way. Plus, if one of the elves got tricked and was freed, he could simply go up to DD's office, and ask to be enslaved again. I think DD would gladly take him back. So really it's all pointless, unless DD stops using house elves. Which there is a slim possibility of.
Also we have to remember that the wizarding society havehad elves as their slaves for so long, that they simply are not interested in anything to do with them. And only talk to them if issuing orders (I assume.) The houose elves, on the other hand, see nothing wrong with this, as they to have grown up their whole lives with this culture. They probably feel lucky to serve wizards, and the better they do it, the more they will be reawarded. I know if that was how I was brought up, I would feel the same way. Dobby grew up with some evil evil wizards, and some bad experiences, so obviously that's all he's known. Of course then, he's not going to want to be a servant. And of course that's why all the other elves think he's weird.

[carsten]

As a society we have been so brainwashed by the idea of servitude that we believe freedom to be the only way to exist happily.

I agree that JKR is focusing on the idea of service, when it comes to elves. And she makes it hard for us to decide, whether it is good or bad fate to be an elf.

As humans, a few things are obvious to us:

• Service is a part of life. As Tanuki said, we are serving others anyway. We care for our children, and we do so happily.
• Slavery is unacceptable, because people (or elves) are forced to be servants. The don't have the freedom of choice. That's one of the deficits of the wizarding community: The despise slavery for themselves, but accept it for others, they look down on. I think JKR is trying to tell us, that this is not OK.
• If the elves would be able to make a leap in their consciousness, offering service out of free will, it could make all the difference in the upcoming war and the overall story.

Preacher mode off.

[Tanuki]

[*]Slavery is unacceptable, because people (or elves) are forced to be servants. The don't have the freedom of choice. That's one of the deficits of the wizarding community: The despise slavery for themselves, but accept it for others, they look down on. I think JKR is trying to tell us, that this is not OK.
[/list]
Preacher mode off.

Good points, but once more, we assume thye were forced to be servants. I find this very hard to believe with the sheer power the elves have and I'm guessing rather substantial numbers. I get the feeling freedom has to be forced on them, not srevitude

I remember Ron saying that theycame with houses, big fancy houses. I get the feeling that they are more likely the spirits dwelling inside of these houses and in order to remain (since the house really isn't theirs') they serve the wizard.

[carsten]

... I get the feeling freedom has to be forced on them, not srevitude...

Yor are right again, that's the situation. But think back: A peasant in 17th century Europe would have said: "I am a peasant, my children will be and that is the fate of my family." If you would have forced him to become a different person, he would likely have rejected it, because his life is the only one he knows.

That's another shortcoming of the wizarding community: It is small. They develop in a slower pace than the rest of humanity, because they lack geniuses like Voltaire, Marx, Kant and Sartre, who changed the course of our society. Maybe the belittled Dobby might become the leader of the elf-revolution. Remeber Binns telling about the giant wars and other turmoils? My theory: Dobby will open the eyes of elves to a greater life.

Hopefully I don't expect too much from JKR.

[Mistress Siana]

I don't you are.
JKR certainly presents a society which she thinks is bad. So far, the two people speaking for the elves were Hermione and Dumbledore, who both represent intelligence and morality.

I don't think it's right to suggest the house have a free choice between freedom and slavery, not even in their mind. Such a decision needs personality, which the wizard society nips in the bud, as well as education which is denied the elves. Tanuki, you don't think elves would be allowed to read, to go to a theatre, to form parties, do you? They don't even understand the concept of freedom, they have no opinion of their own, they only know what they've been taught for centuries. Why do you think information is considered a basic human right?

[Hagger 9003]

siana, this is the problem with history being written by the winners. if the house elves were educated, what would you educate them about the real world? if you told them just the good stuff, about flowers, friends, fields, free choice, etc, they would chose freedom. but if you told them everything, would they? would they prefer freedom if it came with murder, crime, drugs, lies, betrayal, war, povery, sadness, and all the bad things in the world? being a "slave" lets you escape this world, and you are safe from it. you dont have to worry about the bad stuff.

i dont know whether information is such a good idea. if hermione told them about the world, she would be biased. if a pro slavery person told them, he would be biased. the house elves' choices would be different. you are getting mixed up with the idea of noble ideas, which i do like, but often wouldnt work. i do believe that freedom is good, but would i prefer it to what lots of house elves have? im not sure. you would have all your desires catered for, and a grateful family. slavery isnt all bad, especially for most house elves.

[Mistress Siana]

Okay, maybe my brain's too full with the things I'll have to write into my constitutional law exam tomorrow

Do you say then that free will, free choice is generally impossible? What is your background? Aren't you part of the western civilisation which is usually considered the writer of history? How come you can critizise the concept of freedom, then?
Still I say that two biased, but different views are better than one biased view.

[Tanuki]

Exactly, the ideas of such revolutionaries have led to the same idea. We as human beings in our infinite arrogance are so great that we are entitled to govern ourselves. So far, this has been folly. In the end, I believe servitude to be a better way for humans to live. It's ust who we serve that's important

Plus, you speak of teaching them, this implies that the house elves are stupid and uneducated. One can't speak of giving a person a choice and then speak of making them think how you want them to think in the same breath. It has to be their choice entirely. Also, a personality is something impossible to stop development on. You can't keep any living being from experiencing discontent or havin certain personality quirks.

[Mint]

I forgot about this thread T_T Im sorry I never even responded.

Anyway, here is my answer to ur post Tanuki ^-^

You're assuming they're being beaten. We have not seen any other housw elves outside of Winky, Dobby and Kretcher. Kreatcher, it seems, was not abused for the most he got was yelled at, and he was crazy as hell.

Winky didn't seem beaten at all, and took to drinking when she was dismissed. This doesn't sound like someone who is happy to be free. The worst I figure Crouch did to her was to dismiss her in the first place

Dobby was housed by death eaters. Do you not think they would abuse him in ways other wizards don't? We can't use the Malfoys for an example since they are some of the worst wizards around.

Do you honeslty believe a normal wizarding family would be so cheap and sadistic as to be cruel to their caretaker. You're making conjecture based on your known opinion of slavery. How do we know that the house elf situation at Hogwarts isn't close to the normal situation? Could you see Molly Weasley or Earnie McMillan doing this sort of thing?

Also, house elves come with the house, they technically should live inside then

We only know of 3 house elves outside of Hogwarts, so we can't really say if they are treated badly or ok but - some wizards are bad and some are good. If 60% of house elves are treated ok, and 40% are not - the fight for freedom is justified already.

If elves like taking care of wizards, they will definitely do it ones they are free. What in the world would be stoping them? There is nooo down side to their freedom at all. (if you have one - tell me what it is)

Also, everyone has some egoism in them. People will uncounsciosly take adventage of a slave... unless they are saint or smth. If you yell at the free person who is taking care of you - they will go away, if you yell at the slave - they will still be there. Even if you say "Im sorry" after you do it - you may feel better, but they might not. And you will never know, because if they have nowhere to go they won't tell you their true feelings.

And thats what I think

[carsten]

slavery isnt all bad, especially for most house elves.

Hagger + Tanuki: Sorry for being blunt, but you seem to have missed the age of enlightenment completely.

Tanuki: Of course, serving others is a noble way to live, unless you are forced to do it. Voluntary service is a much higher form obviously.

Hagger: Read your Kant books again. It is not OK to say that slavery is good for others, if you exclude yourself. I won't accept it for me, so I am not begrudging it to the elves.

Slavery doesn't shield you from the bad things, it is a bad thing.

Wow, this topic has become serious! No offense intended.

[Tanuki]

Once more, assuming it's forced. Most people here assume that the house elves are forced to be servants.

I did not miss the age of enlightenment, but I watch society and have learned freedom to not always be what we thought it was

You also say that you don't want it for you, that you would never accept slavery, this means that no matter what the opinion of others are, mayhaps including a slave, it is not valid in your opinion. No matter what anyone says, you would probably consider it uneducated and without reason, no matter what the intelligance of that person is. I'm not exactly fond of that kind of behavior.

I am not willing to pass judgement on the house elf situation just yet, knowing so little about it. However, I do not think it wise to abide others passing judgement on it knowing as little as I, yet filling it in with textbook reactions to the word servitude

I do agree with Mint's sentiment that maybe they should be allowed; however, reeducation is no better than brainwashing in many cases. You would inject into a different person your perspective and opinions, this is no better than slaving this person to your will.

we've got two books to determine the situation of house elves. I ask others to wait before deciding whether their situation is so bad or not

[carsten]

Once more, assuming it's forced. Most people here assume that the house elves are forced to be servants.

Very fine distinction. So I clarify myself: Slavery in general is unacceptable, because it is forced by definition. You are right, when it comes to elves: We don't know yet whether or how it is forced on them. That remains to be seen in the future books.

How did we get into this discussion?