Harry's Love

[Ferrus]

I don´t think that hate can protect Voldemort for a very simple reason. When somebody loves somebody else, they will do anything to protect that person from harm. On the other hand, when somebody hates somebody else, that person will do anything to hurt that person. So love can protect harry, just as hate permits Voldemort (and the DE´s) to cast the Unforgivable Curses.

[Alice I]

That sound right Ferrus.
I don't see how hate can act as protection for Voldie as it is a "Destructive Force"
Love is a powerful positive and threfore as DD said "Protective Force"

Nightcrawler I see your point being that if one force is so powerful wouldn't it's oppisite be just as powerful but where I disagree with you is the manifistation of that power.
Love would have the power of creation and protection wher Hate would be the oppisite and manifest itself as a powerful destructive force.

I do however feel that the power of love is stronger than the power of hate because love can sustain itself and grows stronger when expressed where
Hate has a tendancy to weaken when expressed as the energy is spent.
Just try to think about the last time you felt enormous anger and maybe even hate or at least bordering on hate.
After venting those feelings they start to ease up or die away but when you express love for someone the feeling does not fade but grows stronger.

Also with the whole good vs evil thing most folks believe that good is stronger than evil and in the end usually wins.

[Emma'I'm a real witch']

Nightcrawler, you make a very good point.
The only thing that gets to me is that Lily protecting Harry brought old magic into play. We don't hear anything about how hatred has done anything to help LV.

I think it will all come to a bit of an emotional climax, i.e Harry loving his friends so much that he has the power to hate LV enough to kill him.

Like when Bellatrix says he has to really mean it with his unforgiveable curse, I think if LV did something bad enough to one of Harry's loved ones he could mean it.

Although he has a great deal of hate for him (because of his parents etc..) he still has a great deal of nobility (letting wormtail go in PoA). And I know this might sound a bit daft but his parents died before Harry could remember them, so he really hates LV for having to live with the Dursleys. I think if he had a more current immediate reason to hate him then it could bring out all sorts of emotions. Much the way he was feeling at the end of OotP about Sirius.

[Athena Appleton]

I don`t really see Luna being very involved in the next books because she wasn`t that much involved in book 5.

Every now and then, you say something that makes me wonder if you've even ever read the books all the way through.

This is definately one of those times.

If you are talking about the magical, "physicall" effects of Lilly's love of Harry; those do zilch to Voldermort. The spell Lilly cast over baby Harry is now inside Voldermort as well. He is immune. And he has all the darkside powers that stem from his hatered.

The protection Lily provided has very little if any effect on Voldemort anymore, like you said. However, now the problem seems to be that
Harry is capable of love, and caring, and goodness. So love is still a danger to Voldemort, and it still keeps him from being able to do certain things to Harry, only the focus of the love has changed.

Hate has a tendancy to weaken when expressed as the energy is spent.

Humph... you never met my father-in-law... Hate can be sustained by holding a grudge just as easily as love can be sustained...

Although he has a great deal of hate for him (because of his parents etc..) he still has a great deal of nobility (letting wormtail go in PoA). And I know this might sound a bit daft but his parents died before Harry could remember them, so he really hates LV for having to live with the Dursleys. I think if he had a more current immediate reason to hate him then it could bring out all sorts of emotions. Much the way he was feeling at the end of OotP about Sirius.

I've about decided that the difference between what Harry felt when he was attempting to curse Bellatrix and what he would need to effectively pull off that curse is that one would have to be a deep, sustained, constant anger, while the other was just in the heat of the moment. If Harry ever does pull off one of these curses, it'll be after so much happens to him that he sits and broods about it and, when thinking about everything, he plans to do the curse. Like a premeditated thing.

[carsten]

Please define the words "love", "hate" and "emotion".

the highest form of love: the grace of God
hate: an impulse from the ego to violently push your belief or conviction on somebody else
emotion: an unstable energy in human communication

Am I sounding esoteric?

Carsten

[Nightcrawler]

Carsten;

the highest form of love: the grace of God

Hmmm.... personally, I'm not a religeous person. But I guess if you are, then your definition of love would be something stemming from God. My definiton is far more general, I'd simply define it as a deep, unconditional caring for someone (or something). I guess we all have out own definition.

hate: an impulse from the ego to violently push your belief or conviction on somebody else

I disagree. I think that your deffinition would be more suited to the word "arrogance" or "pride". These are only a part of hate (IMHO). You see hatered as something fickle and born purely from the ego. I see it as the opposite to love; a deep resentment or bitterness towards someone (or something).

I guess I see love as a positive energy and hate as a negitive. I think that both are equally as powerful, and each has their pros and cons. Whilst love is certainly more pleasant that hate, I don't think either of them are more "powerful".

emotion: an unstable energy in human communication

I am sort of with you here. You feel that hatred is an emothion but love isn't, right? I'm not entirely sure it I believe that love is an emotion or not. What exactly do you mean by "unstable"? I would have used the word "uncontrollable", because what we feel is totally out of our controll. When I'm depressed, I don't choose to be depressed, I just am. Therefore it is out of our controll what we feel. I don't believe that we choose who we love, and similarly, we don't choose who we hate.

I've experienced both actually. If I had a say in the matter, things would be a hell of a lot simpler that's for sure.

Am I sounding esoteric?

Not at all.



Alice;

Hate has a tendancy to weaken when expressed as the energy is spent.
Just try to think about the last time you felt enormous anger and maybe even hate or at least bordering on hate.
After venting those feelings they start to ease up or die away but when you express love for someone the feeling does not fade but grows stronger.

Currently, I have a great desire to expresss my feelings of hatred to a certain individual in my life. Whilst doing so would leave me somewhat satisfied, the scars from this individual would remain, so I think that the feelings would not go away at all.

As for love... like I said earlier, both love and hate have thier pros and cons. Ever been in a situation where your love for someone has been used as a noose to wrap around your neck? Just one of the downsides of love for the wrong person. Eventually I realised what I was letting this person do to me and eventually, those feelings did fade. Sucked at first, but over time they faded.

Also with the whole good vs evil thing most folks believe that good is stronger than evil and in the end usually wins.

In fiction, good always wins because that is what the audience wants. Fiction is our escape from reality, and we want to believe in a world where good always comes out on top. Unfortunetly, it doesn't always work out that way in real life though.



Anyhow, sorry if I got off topic there, I'll do my best to bring it back on track;

I think that Rowling has used "love" to rescue Harry once already in PS (or SS if you live in the US). She has already used that card, so I don't think that she will use it agian. The power of his mother's love saved him from Quirrel/Voldermort, but I think that the whole point of the graveyard scene in GoF was to create a new verson of Voldermort, one who could overcome the ancient spell Harry's mother cast. One of the "ingredients" that gave Voldermort a new body was the blood of Harry. Now Voldie has a part of Harry inside him. The playing feilds are even, and I feel that it would be cheap to give Harry yet another hidden power that makes him untouchable.

Personally, I feel that Voldermort's own arroance will be his downfall. He will underestimate Harry and Harry will use that to his advantage.

Or perhaps Wormtail will pull a Darth Vader and take Voldermort by surprise. Come to think of it, that would probably be the most likey thing to happen...

[carsten]

To end the off-topic discussion: We have different viewpoints onto the same thing. Yours is based on day-to-day experience, while mine is somewhat loftier. OK? I am stopping at that point.

The playing feilds are even, and I feel that it would be cheap to give Harry yet another hidden power that makes him untouchable.

I agree completely. Having a reliable weapon that makes you invincible would be rather boring. I assume it will me more complicated.

Personally, I feel that Voldermort's own arroance will be his downfall. He will underestimate Harry and Harry will use that to his advantage.

Or perhaps Wormtail will pull a Darth Vader and take Voldermort by surprise. Come to think of it, that would probably be the most likey thing to happen...

Good point here. In OotP DD gives a hint, that Harry and Wormtail have a special connection, now that Harry has saved his life. And such a turn is necessary, because Harry is still weak and in-experienced compared to LV.

Carsten

[Evil Wizard Petting Zoo]

For any Disney fans: In Aladdin 3, at the end, Iago kills the bad guy by using his very last strength. (if I remember correctly, it's been a long time) Iago is Wormtail and the bad guy of course if Voldy. I'm not sure if it will end like that, but that Aladdin ending may have some parallel with HP's ending.

[Groo]

firstly, though its a bit late in the day, welcome nightcrawler to BaO

you have explained your points remarkably. maybe hate wasnt the perfect word to be used in my earlier post , what i meant was what you said, a negative energy against the positive energy.
anyway, enough has been said about that.

I do however feel that the power of love is stronger than the power of hate because love can sustain itself and grows stronger when expressed where Hate has a tendancy to weaken when expressed as the energy is spent.

that i dont actually disagree with, because that is relative. it depends on the person who is hating or loving. not necesarily does hate weaken with time, maybe the scars grow deeper and the brooding increases it for some people. so you cant say which of them is more powerful

[Ferrus]

I don´t think itcan be said that Love is stronger than Hate any more than one can say that the positive pole of a magnet is stronger than the negative one.

A rather far-fetched theory that ocurred to me while reading this post is this:

What if Harry is incapable of feeling hate in a way the Voldemort can´t feel love? It would certainly make things extremely interesting and make the similar-but-different relationship between Harry and Voldemort ever more extreme.

[Alice I]

Well it seems that not a single person thinks that my whole love/hate ideas are worth the paper they are written on so I withdraw my opinion.

[Groo]

aww.. come on Alice!! dont withdraw your opinion! the only person in the world who should withdraw his opinion on listening to the consensus is George Bush and he doesnt!

hmm, Ferrus you have got me thinking. some people are saying that Harry will be able to perform the Unforgivable curses by book 7 as he will learn to hate like LV. but then, if he stoops to that level of hating, will his power of loving be affected?

hmm...

[Phinea Rogue]

I don´t think itcan be said that Love is stronger than Hate any more than one can say that the positive pole of a magnet is stronger than the negative one.

Yes, I believe that they are equally strong. But is it really hate that Voldemort feels? Is he capable of any feeling?

What if Harry is incapable of feeling hate in a way the Voldemort can´t feel love? It would certainly make things extremely interesting and make the similar-but-different relationship between Harry and Voldemort ever more extreme.

It would definitely be interesting, but I don't know... Is it possible that they both are able to feel love or hate, but Harry chooses love and Voldemort simply ignores his feelings, he doesn't consider them (any feelings) worth of his attention and searches only power?

[Quidditchmaniac]

Harry and Luna do sound like a wierd couple but JKR always seems to suprise us

[Emma'I'm a real witch']

I do however feel that the power of love is stronger than the power of hate because love can sustain itself and grows stronger when expressed where Hate has a tendancy to weaken when expressed as the energy is spent.

Alice I think you mean anger can wane as the energy fades, hate is something different. It's like how passion can fade from love, but the emotion love is still there.