Time-Turner Problem

[Voldemort]

First I want to say that I put this post in OotP because it has a little to do with OotP, although most is PoA, but I didnt want to spoil anything for those who havent read Pheonix yet.

This has been bugging me ever since I thought hard about OotP. It seems to me the JKR should have never introduced the Time-Turner that was used in PoA. Think about the possibilities of a device that can make mistakes go away. If anything happens bad in the past, you can just turn around the clock and dont do it (or tell yourself not to).

With such a device, why wouldnt Voldemort just go back in time, say in GoF, and kill Harry without dueling him??? I know some of you are saying that he doesnt have a Time-Turner, but I think that Voldemort gets almost whatever he wants.

I thought of this idea after thinking about ways to save Sirius. Why doesnt DD just use a Time-Turner and go back, capture all the DE and save Sirius?

I just dont think that JKR really thought about what she had written. It seems to be an all powerful device, which anyone can use to change the past, therefore changing the present.

I dont know if this sounded right, but I tried to explain what I was thinking. What do you think?

TOM MARVOLO RIDDLE ---- I AM LORD VOLDEMORT
Avada Kedavra!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hermione Weasley]

I think that's the reason she introduced the time turner.I don't think that it has played out the stay in the books, but she also said that they were gaurded and only certain people are allowed to use them i almost had the impression that only one person could get to them and that would be the minister of magic like when people need to hide and they have a secret keeper i had the impression it was like that. like there was a charm tha made it so one person could get to them.

[Meg Boyd]

ooooooooooh, kinda freaky how a Time Turner can change things. It kinda made me wonder also, since a lot of things could have been changed with the time turner, like the death of the Potters...hmmmmmmmm...i was going to say that perhaps Time Turners can't be used to save someone from death, but they saved Buckbeak and Sirius from death with the Time Turner, didn't they in PoA? There must be some other rules and regulations on the Time Turner we just don't know, or else everyone would be using them to change things. I bet this thought of a time turner will come into Harry's mind in future books, another thing to prey and torture his mind...perhaps Time Turners cannot be used to change outcomes that are meant to be. The Potters were meant to die as to save Harry's life, and maybe Sirius was meant to die...meaning if it is someone's time, they can't be saved no matter what, even with the Time Turner??? Or ohhh, make fun of me please, but perhaps if a Time Turner is used to save a human life their deaths are just delayed or even terminally messed up? I mean they saved Sirius once, and he died soon after. But what if someone used a time turner to save the Longbottoms, and they survived but became in curably insane. Kinda like the half life one gets from the Philosphers' Stone? I don't know, just a thought...

[Ju-DedoH]

I think the half life is what you get from drinking unicorn blood ... but about the time turner, it would be very easy to duplicate it ... (going back fiveminutes, picking a second one up etc) so they could go easily out of control ... such an artifact seems to hard to keep hidden ...

[Gwared]

ooooooooooh, kinda freaky how a Time Turner can change things. It kinda made me wonder also, since a lot of things could have been changed with the time turner, like the death of the Potters...hmmmmmmmm...i was going to say that perhaps Time Turners can't be used to save someone from death, but they saved Buckbeak and Sirius from death with the Time Turner, didn't they in PoA? There must be some other rules and regulations on the Time Turner we just don't know, or else everyone would be using them to change things. I bet this thought of a time turner will come into Harry's mind in future books, another thing to prey and torture his mind...perhaps Time Turners cannot be used to change outcomes that are meant to be. The Potters were meant to die as to save Harry's life, and maybe Sirius was meant to die...meaning if it is someone's time, they can't be saved no matter what, even with the Time Turner??? Or ohhh, make fun of me please, but perhaps if a Time Turner is used to save a human life their deaths are just delayed or even terminally messed up? I mean they saved Sirius once, and he died soon after. But what if someone used a time turner to save the Longbottoms, and they survived but became in curably insane. Kinda like the half life one gets from the Philosphers' Stone? I don't know, just a thought...

Right, maybe the history can only be changed if it has already happened or hasn't yet happened. I.e Buckbeak was dragged off before killing and Sirius was waiting to be killed. The Potter's were already dead therefore you couldn't save them (especially as...well you couldn't save them!).

Maybe if you save someone after death it really screws things up?

I think the half life is what you get from drinking unicorn blood ... but about the time turner, it would be very easy to duplicate it ... (going back fiveminutes, picking a second one up etc) so they could go easily out of control ... such an artifact seems to hard to keep hidden ...

If you went back five minutes (which you can't btw...it's hour increments), and took the TT, it would now not be there to take the first time...i.e you couldn't do it.

[Ju-DedoH]

which means that every time hermione went back an hour, it disapeared from her hands an hour before (hope everyone is still following me) so then, how did she go back an hour (an hour after) ? err quite compicated, let's try with hour A and hour B and hermy 1 and hermy 2:
Hour B : hermy1 goes back an hour to attend a second lesson
Hour A : Hermy1 appears, but there is another hermy(2), going around to attend to the first lesson (if you can't duplicate the TT, then it disappears from hermy2's hands)
Hour b (again) : Hermy2 (in order to not disrupt space time continuum) has to go back to hour A since she has already done it ...
and hermy 1 goes on since she is the normal hermy
OK so here's the complication, hermy2 han't got a TT anymore to go back in time ... so what happens ? does she evaporate into thin air ?

em i hope this isn't as complicated as it seem's (obviousley it is, but i like to hope it isn't)
and err i'll try a drawing if youv'e still not understood

[Gwared]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no!

You mentioned duplicating the time turner overall first which is to which I responded is impossible...now you mention that the time turner can't be in two places at once..which it can, but in the end there would still be one.

*sighs* I shall be here some time:

Right, situation one (duplication of time turner so that you would have two from every one).

Eg. You take time turner off pedestal and click back one hour, there are now two TT's. One in your hand and the other on the pedestal from which you took it. If you then took TT#2 from the pedestal you would have then been unable to take TT#1 at the start and therefore it would be impossible and some force would have to stop you doing it or time would crash! You would however be OK if you replaced TT#2 before the alloted hour ended.

Situation two (two TT's in one time).

Eg. above but at the end of the hour you would watch yourself take TT#1 and travel back in time thereby leaving only one TT again!! The one round your neck!.

*breathes*

It's a differcult thing to get heads round but if you are still unbelieving tell me why and I'll try to argue further.

[highsorcerer]

Is it any wonder time-turners are highly restricted items? Or that wizards have caused massive problems using them, sometimes killing their past or future selves?

Time seems to have a way of sorting things out. Harry and Hermoine never really changed anything, since it happened the first time. They assumed the thud of the axe was McNair killing Buckbeak, but it was actually him driving it into the log. Similarly, Harry's future self produced the patronus to drive away the dementors the first time.

[Fafnul Black]

Shrewd point, sorcerer !

If a time turner was involved in the DoM fight, then obviously it did not help to save the day. Remember the Dementors crowd closing on Harry in PoA, the patronus was there, and then Harry "came back" later to make up for it. But it was there first place.

So, apart from a "what if" point of view, no time turner !

[Holly Golightly]

I am totally undertanding what you guys are saying and agreeing with you!

THe reasont hat Harry etc can't use teh time turner to go back and change Sirius's death (in ootp) or anything else for that matter is because they didnt'...

If they had done it, Sirius would never have die in the first place. Buckbeak never dies, we just assumed that he did... So same thing.. SIrius has already died, so they cant' go back and save him, or they woudl already have saved him!

Obv, same applies to the Potters or any other situation!!!

[Iluvatar]

Hi Guys. This is my first post and I chose this topic because I have allready given considerable thought to time paradoxes and I wanted to express my views and theories. Beware though. This might turn out to be a bit complicated.

Let's take a very simple example. A relative has died and you want to go back and save them. Your reason (incentive I call it.) for traveling back in time is to prevent a death that has happened. So you go back in time and save your relative. The problem is that now that your relative is saved, you have no incentive to go back in time and save him/her. Therefore you will not be there in the past to save your relative. Do you see the contradiction? The idea is that the act of saving your relative makes
your incentive to save them vanish. I believe the problem lies there.

However, this doesn't mean it is impossible to go back in time and prevent events from happening

Let's take another example: Harry and Hermione save Sirius in PoA.

Harry's incentive at his time of departure (so to speak) is to prevent a death which has not yet happened Harry therefore travels back in time. We now have 2 Harry's. Harry1 (just showed up) and Harry2 (has not traveled back yet) Harry1 saves Sirius. Harry2 isn't aware of this and still believes that Sirius is in danger of execution. Therefore Harry1's actions have not changed or caused Harry2's incentive to vanish, and Harry2 will still go back in time to save Sirius.

Following that same logic, it is now impossible for Harry to go back in time again to save Sirius from falling into the veil. Why? For the same reason as in the first example. Because Sirius is allready dead and Harry's incentive is to prevent a death that has allready happened. Therefore by saving Sirius, his incentive for travelling back in time will vanish. Harry would have had to go back in time before Sirius actually died. But he couldn't have known that Sirius would fall through the veil before it happened.

Therefore it is my opinion that the possibility to save someone using time travel depends on whether you depart before or after the death has occured or more precisely whether you leave with the intention of preventing a death that will happen or a death that has allready happened.

There! I hope that wasn't too complicated. I know there are gaps and loopholes in this simple version of my theory but I wanted to keep things as simple as possible. I can explain my theory more thouroghly for those who aren't convinced or would like to know more. I'll also welcome any logical proof that my theory is wrong or contradicts itself. Just tell me what's bothering you and I'll see if I can explain or elaborate the theory.

Iluvatar

[Violet]

Finally i think i understand this time turner thing!
basically if u know something that will happen, but u wanna stop it u can go back in time to change it before it happens. but if it has already happened then you cant.
So basically meaning that those who have died were meant to die, or else someone would have known about it and could have used the time turner

[Iluvatar]

Yeah, I guess that's the logical conclusion one would come to.

I'm happy to see that I managed to explain my theory in a comprehensible manner.

[Holly Golightly]

Iluvatar, you did a great job in explaining that, I had no problems understanding what-so-ever! (and trust me, I normally do have problems understanding!!! )

That's kinda the way I see the time travel thing happening too!

But basically yeah, we are on the same page! Once they-re dead, it's too alte to do anything about it!!!

[Holly Golightly]

Iluvatar, you did a great job in explaining that, I had no problems understanding what-so-ever! (and trust me, I normally do have problems understanding!!! )

That's kinda the way I see the time travel thing happening too!

But basically yeah, we are on the same page! Once they-re dead, it's too alte to do anything about it!!!