Book 5 Mystery :: The Arch and the Veil

[Lunatech]

Ok well I'm a big fan of Luna and will go on a bit of a tangent here. Luna and Harry came to the room with the veil in the Department of Mystery. This I feel will be the topic of the next book...being book 6.

Lets start at the beginning. JKR first stated that ghosts and death would be explained in this book. Did she? Many of you would say its vague...but, is it?

Out of desperation, Harry went to Nick to determine why some people become ghosts?

"'...I chose my feeble imitation of life instead. I believe learned wizards study the matter in the Department of Mysteries'" (Order of the Phoenix - US) pg.861

When Harry met Luna in the hallway on the last chapter, she made a reference to her mother.

"I still feel very sad sometimes. But I've still got Dad. And anway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?...in that room with the archway, They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them." (Order of the Phoenix - US) pg.863

So what does this tell us? Well first off JKR is telling us that Luna can see spirits (not necessarily just ghosts). Secondly she hinted that the room with the arch has some connection with her mother. As she can still see her in some form. What else does this tell us? Well it also tells us that Luna's mother is an "Unspeakable" from the Department of Mysteries.

I'm guessing that the room that the visited, was some sort of portal for the dead, or has some sort of direct relation with death. Hermione felt an ominous feeling upon entering the room. Luna and Harry on the other hand understood...well Luna more than Harry

I'm guessing Harry would probably traverse the world of the dead to find some answers. And this room will probably be very likely be linked.

Harry and Luna seem like they would be together as a love interest.

Tell me what you think of my hypothesis.

[Lunatech]

Ok well I'm a big fan of Luna and will go on a bit of a tangent here. Luna and Harry came to the room with the veil in the Department of Mystery. What does this room, death, Nearly-Headless Nick, Harry, Luna, and her Mother have in common?

Lets start at the beginning. JKR first stated that ghosts and death would be explained in this book. Did she? Many of you would say her explanation was vague. In an attempt to find out about ghosts Harry approached Nearly-Headless Nick regarding what he knows. He mentioned that when you die, you have to make a choice. He said to Harry,

"'...I chose my feeble imitation of life instead. I believe learned wizards study the matter in the Department of Mysteries'" (Order of the Phoenix - US) pg.861

When Harry met Luna in the hallway on the last chapter, she made a reference to her mother. She mentioned that she was a very talented witch that died when her spell went bad.

"I still feel very sad sometimes. But I've still got Dad. And anway, it's not as though I'll never see Mum again, is it?(Order of the Phoenix - US) pg.863

Two lines down she says this:

"in that room with the archway, They were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them." (Order of the Phoenix - US) pg.863

So what does this tell us? Well first off JKR is telling us that Luna can see spirits (not necessarily just ghosts). She has a very good understanding of death. Secondly she hinted that the room with the arch has some connection with her mother. As she can still see her in some form. What else does this tell us? Well it also tells us that Luna's mother is an "Unspeakable" from the Department of Mysteries.

I'm guessing that the room that the visited, was some sort of portal for the dead, or has some sort of direct relation with death. Hermione felt an ominous feeling upon entering the room. Luna and Harry on the other hand understood...well Luna more than Harry

The hint was slight but it seems very significant.

Now whats left to infer is if there is a connection with Luna and Harry. I say yes, Luna is described to be very similar to Lily Potter. She may be a bit spacey, but Harry has more things in common with Luna than any other female characters in the story.

lunatech.



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muskratman
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i don't know what jk will make it out to be but that curtain may be a
gateway to wizard heaven or somethin
but maybe i missed somethin but i took from harry and nicks convo that nick is a ghost because he was afraid to die so you become a ghost if youre a wizard and if you aren't brave enough to face death....



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Lunatech
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you forget the part where nick mentions that death is handled by the department of mysteries. that is the most important bit of information i think which is the precursor for the upcomming book.

she didn't blatantly reveal the mysteries of death. but there is gonna be definitely more about Luna's mother...

It would make sense if JKR reveals her in parallel with revealing the mysteries behind Lily Potter.



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TrinityEB
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It seems to me as though the veil will have some sort of importance somewhere in the next 2 books. If she never explains about it we will never really know 'why' Sirius died!

I mean seriously (no pun intented) think about it. Sirius couldn't have just died by falling into the veil... and I really don't think that he cousin managed a spell that could have killed him... so that leaves the veil. It HAS to be something about the veil... and if Harry doesn't ask questions about it... well... I'll smack him! LOL! I mean.. he has to be wondering too, no?

I do think that it is odd how the veil seemed to reaccure through out the end, giving Harry & Luna something to sort of talk about. It was really odd how them seemed to be the only ones that could hear anything. Do you think that might have to do with viewing deaths before too? Maybe Neville could hear it but didn't say anything? *shrugs* Who knows! I really want to find out though... *can't wait for the 6th book already* I'm just not to keen on any more of my favorite characters dieing... though.. I guess it's inneviatable.


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muskratman
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no i didn't forget that
i still think ghosts are wizards who are afraid of death



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lunatech
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OK this is a side note then.

Do you think Luna has a gifted type of vision? I mean not only seeing the thestrals....but she seems to see everything that matters.

also i think she's not nearly as interesting as her mother working for the department of mysteries regarding death....

it's quite an intruiging seed that JKR planted for the next couple of books.



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Eyla Liv
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Okay, i like your explination but i'm still a little confused. why does this make Luna's mother an unspeakable? Also, do we know ANYTHING about what unspeakables do / are? I'm just a tad confused...thanks!



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lunatech
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Ok when Luna mentioned that her mother died she mentioned that it isn't the last time she's gonna see her.

Harry asked, "...it isn't?"

Luna shook her head and replied "Oh come on. You heard them just behind the veil didn't you?"

I think Luna's mother did worked for the department of Mysteries regarding death. How else would she know what she knows.


last side note, Luna mentioned that her mom was a very talented witch (magically speaking) before she died in the accident.

You'd have to be a pretty talented which to be able to work in the Ministry of Magic...

So yes. i say she's an "unspeakable" that works in the department of mysteries.


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Sophia
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It doesn't necessarly mean that Luna's mother was an Unspeakable... That was the Death Room, probably some place where the memories, spirits, whatever of all those who die are kept... Luna probably just felt it, just understood it, just knew it when she entered the room. She's not a common girl...



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lunatech
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well is it unreasonable?

I think it makes quite sense. But we will have to wait to be sure .

lastly when Hermione was trying to push Harry and Luna out of the room because she feared it. Luna wasn't afraid of the room at all.

"You know what could be in there?" said Luna eagerly, as the wall started to spin again.
-Order of the Phoenix (US) pg.776.

Eager.

somewhere in the next two books harry will probably travel the world of the dead.

[Lunatech]

im sorry for the duplicate posts. would the moderator mind it much to delete the very first post of this topic? thanks much.

Luna.

[Holly Golightly]

Uhh, there is no mod yet, I'm sure that Paul can do it when he's around though.
But I was wondering... what was with all the part of your post that seemed like a conversation between other people???

[Lunatech]

heh yes. sorry i brought up a post i wrote at another forum because some of the people asked some pretty interesting question.

[Malachim]

Here's some thoughts:

I can't remember the quote exactly and I don't have the book in front of me but Luna's mother was killed when a spell she was attempting went awry. So, I don't think that alludes to her working for MOM as that could have happened anywhere.

Next, I think the veil in the death room is just that, the Veil. The fabric between life and death. I've seen this mentioned in many fantasy series, most notably Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. Behind the veil is the land of the dead. My belief is that, for now, JKR is implying that this veil allows only one way passage. As in life->death. This is why Sirius died IMHO. He did not die from the spell but by "passing through the veil".

I dont think you can tie these two things together to arrive at your conclusion.

One more thought, Nearly Headless Nick, when saying that he believes the whole death/ghost thing is studied in the Department of Mysteries also said that the room is also always locked. Or, perhaps he said it was behind a locked door, as I said I don't have the book in front of me, anyway I think that may be the room that Harry and the gang were not able to get into when they were on their way in. Just a thought.

All that being said, I do agree that the veil will play a bigger role in the story to come. I think Harry may very well traverse the land of the dead and find his way back. After all, didn't Voldamort do the same thing, meaning come back to life?

I'll be interested to see your responses...

-Mal

[Lunatech]

Yes, it was never blatantly stated. But you forget a couple of very important points that lead me to this.

First off, how did Luna know. Everything. In the room, the presense, the fact that she knows what happens when people die and know that she can eventually see her mother again. Ok afterwhich, 2 lines down when Harry confronted Luna, she said "They were in there...just hiding"

Ok at first glance you think "they" as spirits or ghosts or whatever. But think of it another way. She could also have included her mother in her saying "They".

Lastly JKR described her as being eager when she was in the room. She had to have known what the room was about.

So the real question is. How does she know. She's only on her 4th year at Hogwarts and she already has a better understanding of the portal in the DoM. The only real explanation we can infer (from the facts given to us) is that her mom worked there as an Unspeakable.

It's not concrete, but it's the best we have I think.

The book also clearly stated that her mother was a very competant witch. I find it hard to believe that a very competant witch can kill themselves

[Lunatech]

without working on something extremely dangerous.

[Lizzy Bennet]

All that being said, I do agree that the veil will play a bigger role in the story to come. I think Harry may very well traverse the land of the dead and find his way back. After all, didn't Voldamort do the same thing, meaning come back to life?

I'll be interested to see your responses...

-Mal

I am fascinated by this veil, Malachim and Lunatech...now, I'm starting to see why Ravenclaw suited me...I just love intellectual and thoughtful discussions!

If Harry could, in fact, travel to 'the land of the dead' and return and still live, could other people be brought back--i.e. Siirus--as well? How would that work? Technically, if that worked, Harry would try to bring his parents back and loads of other people, if he could!

Had another thought. I remember Dumbledore (I think in book 4) telling Harry that no magic could bring a person back to life. Which is why I wonder how someone could go through the veil and come back out of it? Wouldn't Sirius have done that? I'm probably missing something here! I have a feeling he and Luna will revisit that room, but that veil seems dangerous...it seems like a finite thing won't you step through it. What are your thoughts?

[Malachim]

Well, some of this I think is explainable.

Luna "knew" about a lot of stuff. The (what was that creature again?) that Hermoine said didn't exsist but Lune was going to hunt with her dad?

Anyway, she is a bit loony, but also perceptive. That doesn't mean she knew anything about who or how there were people behind the veil. She and Harry were the only two close enough the hear the murmerings in that room before it went crazy in there.

Now, could she have been talking about her mother in saying they? Perhaps. But it becomes supposition on top of supposition. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just didn't see it the same way. The Veil is an old way to look at the line between life and death.

As for Luna's mother, I think the only tie-in is that she's dead. That's the tie to the veil. I would be very suprised if JKR had Sirius and Luna's mother both die in the same place even if the circumstances are different.

Lastly, the spell her mom cast "got out of hand" and she died. It must, by nature, be a dangerous spell as she was killed by it.

[Lunatech]

no. i dont think you can come back.

there is always a sense of finality whenever people are mentioned to be dead. the dead stay dead i believe. i'ts where they choose exsist that separate them.

but there is no clue if you can come back if you enter the arch. The key to information about the arch is Luna. No doubt about it. I'm going to disect OotP to see if i can find another clue.

[Malachim]

Lizzy--

It is a facinating piece isn't it?

Here's my thoughts:
I stick to what I said before about the possibility of Harry finding a way to traverse the land of the dead. The difference being he won't BE dead. I think, as you have said, once you're dead you're dead. I don't think that rules out the possibility of "visiting". Somehow Voldamort came back. I think that means he wasn't really dead either.
As for Sirius and Harry's parents, they are dead and I do not think they could be brought back. I think Harry may go and speak to them though if he finds a way to "Pass through the Veil".
It's obvious that the arch and veil is in the Dept. of Mysteries because it's being studied... perhaps Harry will find some of the research or an enchanted object that will allow him to go in and back out again.

Hrm... I'll need to give it more thought...

-Mal...

[Lunatech]

Lizzy how much can I quote a couple paragraphs from the book without breaking your board rules?

We can study this better with the actual quotes.

[Lizzy Bennet]

To my knowledge *dodges rotten tomatoes *, I don't think there's a limit to how much you can copy from the book as long as you quote it (book title and page number). I can't swear on that, but unless it was paragraphs and paragraphs, I can't see how quoting various things here and there would hurt...it's done elsewhere on this forum.

Before taking my word on it, I would highly recommend PMing Paul, the Forum Administrator. He's a really nice guy, and he can tell you exactly what's allowed! I think he's online right now, so you could PM him now, and I'm sure he'd get back to you pretty quickly. Hope that helps...sorry I can't give you an absolute answer...I'm still relatively new myself! hehe

[Lizzy Bennet]

Lizzy--

It is a facinating piece isn't it?

Here's my thoughts:
I stick to what I said before about the possibility of Harry finding a way to traverse the land of the dead. The difference being he won't BE dead. I think, as you have said, once you're dead you're dead. I don't think that rules out the possibility of "visiting". Somehow Voldamort came back. I think that means he wasn't really dead either.
As for Sirius and Harry's parents, they are dead and I do not think they could be brought back. I think Harry may go and speak to them though if he finds a way to "Pass through the Veil".
It's obvious that the arch and veil is in the Dept. of Mysteries because it's being studied... perhaps Harry will find some of the research or an enchanted object that will allow him to go in and back out again.

Hrm... I'll need to give it more thought...

-Mal...

Indeed it is fascinating . . . I am truly enjoying posting with both you and Lunatech!

I thought, though, that it was established that the spell that hit Sirius isn't what killed him--that falling through the veil is what did it. But if the veil is simply a separator and you are suggesting, Mal, that Harry can walk through it and simply 'visit', then Sirius isn't really dead...just trapped somehow. But if Sirius is trapped, then wouldn't Harry be trapped as well?

I think, until I get further evidence, I have to go with what Lunatech is saying in that when you're dead, you're dead. Whether or not Sirius was 'dead' when he was knocked into the veil I suppose wouldn't matter because once you pass through the veil, that's it--it's over. Perhaps, instead of Harry travelling through the veil, he might be able to communicate with the other side. I'm really not sure. Luna has some answers, though, and perhaps we'll get those in later books.

In regards to my speculations you didn't agree with, Lunatech (though, very nicely, so thanks ), I was simply brainstorming...you're quite right...I doubt Luna's mother's death had to do with the veil, but maybe what Luna was saying is that *all* those who have died reside on the other side of that veil. Perhaps the fact that both Luna and Harry have experienced and understood death closely (thereby seeing the threstals [misspelt it again!]) is the reason they were also able to understand that room and hear the murmurs.

Whenever Paul gives you the answer regarding posting some of the text, Lunatech, I look forward to whatever you post, and what both of you have to say about it!


~ Lizzy B.