SPEW

[Snitch_Catcher]

it scares them cause they will have no were to go and they dont know what to do on there own

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Only because they haven't been educated.

[carsten]

Hi

I can't accept this It scares them idea. Going through life you have to face many scary situations. Let's say you are expected to jump from 3m into the pool. That's quite a height if watched from above. If you refuse to overcome your fear, you will not jump. No matter whether jumping into a pool from a height of 3m may turn out as fun or not: If you flinch from doing it, you will shatter your self-esteem.

Don't misread me: Throwing somebody from the diving board won't do any good. That would build up even more fear and resentment. But overcoming fear yourself is the way to grow as a person. I hope the elves will. On that we can only speculate.

[Tanuki]

Only because they haven't been educated.

So you're saying they haven't revolted because they're stupid, or uneducated. I think you are seriously underestimating the minds of the elves... and I wonder if maybe ppl her haven't considered that the elves themselves may not have a reason of their own to remain in servitude

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Actually I said that they wouldn't know where to go in the world if they were freed because they haven't been educated about it. Which is true I'm betting for the majority of elves. Of course maybe not all because you can't just generalise like that, but I didn't for a second say that they were stupid.
By the way, the thought just occurred: People are arguing that the elves want to remain in servatude. Who on earth would want to remain in a state wwere henever you told the truth about something, or a secret, you have to physically hurt yourself as a punishment. It's like they've been brainwashed into thinking that everybody else is better than them. Wizards don't have to do that to themselves if they backstab somebody. Even if the elves don't want to be free, they still shouldn't have to do that. If your all for keeping them in slavery, you're all for tormenting them, and don't even start saying that that was just the case with Dobby and the Malfoys.[/i]

[Hagger 9003]

im not all for keeping them in slavery, i just think that people often prefer to keep with what they have, and dont generally like things to be changed. and, for goodness sake, not everybody punishes their elves!! the malfoys are a relic from the times when voldemort ruled!!! they are not an example of how elves are treated. there was a big debate about this a while ago. think of the matrix. people dont always want to know all about new things. lots of people just prefer not to know. we arent all heroes. most of us consider ourselves normal, and dont like to have their worlds completely reversed. its not always a nice experience. they need to be educated. that does not mean they are stupid. but if you dont know about it, how can you make a choice? all they know about is experience and rumours. thats not really enough. they need to know what would happen to them if they were freed.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

I still have a feeling there's some binding curse on them. Not that they know it or feel it's effects, just that maybe thousands of years ago it was placed or something.
They weren't born slaves were they!? (The race... obviously house-elves are born and enslaved striaght away now.)

[Tanuki]

How do you know they didn't choose to be slaves? You say that no one wants to give up their freedom, and I can tell you that there are people in this world who would. There are times when I feel I would prefer to live in the service of another than to have to live in this world on my own. You assume that because they serve wizarding families, that they are slaves. Somehow. I think this situation will surprise a lot of people.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

This isn't just one person though, this is a whole race. They don't have the choice to leave whenever they want, like a servant does. They are binded to their master. Even if it's just in their minds, something must have started it.

[Tanuki]

Yes, I agree, in some situations, the normal restrictions for a servant can leave a house elf with the shor end of the stick. However, you are assuming that they are the worse off on an avrage and freedom would be preferable to them, and you are assuming that the thing that least to house elves being what they are had to do with wizards dominating them. I want you to consider the other probability of either.

Maybe, just maybe, they are better off as servants (even in the muggle world, punishments come from doing a bad job or turning on your master), and maybe they chose to be in the situation they are in now, and did not have to be dominated by wizards. these are alien concepts to many people who do not want to surrender their will to anyone, but it does happen. Remember, even teh psychology of the wizarding world is different from our own. We cannot hope to judge them or their traditions. Hell, even the old pure blood mythology has a logical root somewhere (historically speaking of course, nowadays such a thign is moot)

[Hagger 9003]

to give up freedom for slavery would be a very philosophical thing to do. it would be recognising that freedom is not the best thing in the world, and taking action on that principle. they may have done it for their own safety tho. being a servant of someone usually earns that person's protection, but i imagine that the house-elves have been servants for longer than they care to remember. they may have been enslaved originally, but you cant really now blame the wizards. they didnt do it, it was their ancestors. and not all people want to be independent. independent from what, anyway? no one is truly free, so why should you fight slavery? freedom doesnt really exist, so the house elves are really in quite a good position. they dont need to worry about food, or where to sleep, and considering that most wizards are kind, and would be good masters, it seems like a good option for me. dont forget, they love to clean, and it seems to give them pleasure to be complimented. it looks like a good situation for them

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Nevertheless you shouldn't force slavery on them if they wish to have that terrible thing, freedom !

And there's a difference between being a servant and a slave. Even if they don't want to fight slavery, and they needed the protection of wizards in the early days... why don't they leave now? Because they don't want to, because being a slave is all they've ever known, and their biggest dream is to be an even better slave...
It seems to give them pleasure to be complimented because it's all they've ever wanted!

[Tanuki]

However, we do not see anyone forcing slavery on them. In fact, they seem to despise the idea. Dobby is still a deviation, and still a result of a very bad situation. We cannot take his situation for granted. Even now that he is free, he still carries with him a certain ammount of pride in being a house elf and taking care of others. If he truly wanted the freedom you speak of, he would have changed much more, but I believe he merely wanted a different master, and recognition for what he has been through, through material compensation

why don't they leave now? Because they don't want to, because being a slave is all they've ever known, and their biggest dream is to be an even better slave...
It seems to give them pleasure to be complimented because it's all they've ever wanted!

Somehow, I fail to see the problem with anything you say there. To live your life as you have been accustomed, doing what you have always enjoyed. They aspire to be better than they are and have a goal to work hard at doing it. And what person would not want recognition for their hard work. On top of that, they never have to worry about feeding themselves or where to live; that is alerady taken care of. Sya what you will about freedom and whatnot. However, for the work of taking care of a family, an elf lives a pretty good life. Yes, they do have to endure pain if they should betray their masters, but that is a common punishment for a soceity still locked in a middle ages mentality, and not without reason. Save, the punishment, which I doubt is the common situation, a house elves lot in life sounds little different from a normal home makers

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Just, off the topic here. The house-elves at Hogwarts have their own quarters don't they? Do we even know if they need sleep? Hmm well they're a different species, and they seem to work around the clock.
Ahh... they'll work shifts won't they......

[Tanuki]

Well, seeing as Winky needed to sleep off butterbeer, and Kretcher had a nest he curled up in to sleep; I'd say Elves do need sleep.

Now, seeing the state of the Hogwart's house elves tea towels, we can assume they have access to both the facilities to clean and access to more than one towel if theirs gets dirty while working. So, we can assume that there is a space where they can clean their own things. And since Dumbledore is a good man, we can easily assume he would supply them with the things to make them both healthy and happy (and we know they are happy by their behavior in general)

Now as for working in shifts, that seems to be a likely solution, especially since the house elves probably have families that need to be taken care of; I assume even elven babies need care