Why Trelawney

[Heidi_hoho]

Every time I read OotP, something bugs me. Why does Umbridge want Trelawney removed? I mean, she is crazy, but it's got to have a bigger reason than just being a power play. Removing Hagrid would have had the exact same, if not bigger effect. I that there was another reason for removing her.

Someone high up in the ministry is a death eater. By high up, I mean Fudge, Umbridge or possibly even Percy. Only a death eater would know that Trelawney gave the prophecy that Voldemort spent the whole fifth book trying to get his hands on. They were probably hoping that getting Trelawney out of Hogwarts would make it possible for them to catch her and find it out (they probably didn't know that she wouldn't remember it). So her removal was more than a firing because she sucked. It was her being fired because someone wanted a chance to get at her without Dumbledore getting in the way.

Of course, Lucius Malfoy could have paid Fudge off to sack her, but I think there's much more to it.

[Ginny Potter]

Every time I read OotP, something bugs me. Why does Umbridge want Trelawney removed? I mean, she is crazy, but it's got to have a bigger reason than just being a power play. Removing Hagrid would have had the exact same, if not bigger effect. I that there was another reason for removing her.

Someone high up in the ministry is a death eater. By high up, I mean Fudge, Umbridge or possibly even Percy. Only a death eater would know that Trelawney gave the prophecy that Voldemort spent the whole fifth book trying to get his hands on. They were probably hoping that getting Trelawney out of Hogwarts would make it possible for them to catch her and find it out (they probably didn't know that she wouldn't remember it). So her removal was more than a firing because she sucked. It was her being fired because someone wanted a chance to get at her without Dumbledore getting in the way.

Of course, Lucius Malfoy could have paid Fudge off to sack her, but I think there's much more to it.

I couldn't agree more with this post.

I remember thinking something similar when Dumbledore immediately hastened to keep Trelawney on the grounds...off Hogwarts grounds (and thus, out of Dumbledore's and Hogwarts' protection), Trelawney could easily fall prey to a Death Eater only too willing to use an illegal curse to get her to spill. Even if she had a memory charm on her, like Bertha, we know those can be broken...and often to the person's detriment.

I wonder, if this truly was a calculated attempt by a Death Eater, if someone will try to access Trelawney again. Does Trelawney even remember giving the prophecy or was a memory charm performed on her? It might not even be necessary, now that I think about it, as she gave Harry a prophecy she seems not to remember. How many other people, such as Neville, have had a memory charm placed on them and what did they know?

[Heidi_hoho]

I don't think she needs a memory charm because she didn't seem to remember the prophecy from PoA. But in GoF, Voldemort was able to break through Bertha Jorkin's memory charms, so maybe he could find a way to get her to remeber it. Either that or he didn't do his research properly (as usual) and he was expecting her to remember it.

[Tanuki]

I don't agree; from what I know of Umbridge, I think it was a move based on two things.

We all know Umbridge is a sadistic thing, and she would prey on the weaker teachers. So, she went after one of the weakest teachers and found that Trelawney cracked before Hagrid. Hagrid, at least held his own against the woman. He did stick to a good lesson plan and presented himself well enough to get over her criteria. Trelawney had to actually have a reason to get rid of hagrid, or else it would have been obvious what her real reason was

Now her other reason was much more obvious. she was tryign to pruge the school of all the teachers she could that she thought were loyal to Dumbledore; both Trelawny and Hagrid being obvious marks. she couldn't get McGonnagal or the others because they were very good teachers and the parents and governers would have instantly had her removed if she acted so openly. She wanted Dumbledore's job and she wanted Dumbledore removed. she even went so far as to recruit students openly opposed to Dumbledore to get what she wanted, even though she did not trust them in the slightest.

In the end, remember what Sirius said. "the world isn't only seperated into good people and deathe eaters."

[Ginny Potter]

I don't agree; from what I know of Umbridge, I think it was a move based on two things.

We all know Umbridge is a sadistic thing, and she would prey on the weaker teachers. So, she went after one of the weakest teachers and found that Trelawney cracked before Hagrid. Hagrid, at least held his own against the woman. He did stick to a good lesson plan and presented himself well enough to get over her criteria. Trelawney had to actually have a reason to get rid of hagrid, or else it would have been obvious what her real reason was

Now her other reason was much more obvious. she was tryign to pruge the school of all the teachers she could that she thought were loyal to Dumbledore; both Trelawny and Hagrid being obvious marks. she couldn't get McGonnagal or the others because they were very good teachers and the parents and governers would have instantly had her removed if she acted so openly. She wanted Dumbledore's job and she wanted Dumbledore removed. she even went so far as to recruit students openly opposed to Dumbledore to get what she wanted, even though she did not trust them in the slightest.

In the end, remember what Sirius said. "the world isn't only seperated into good people and deathe eaters."

Why am I not entirely surprised you DON'T agree?

I'm just giving you a hard time ...I've just noticed that in many of your posts you seem to like to play devil's advocate (or just be plain devilish! ). Always interesting to post with someone opinionated. Suffice to say, I wouldn't put it past Umbridge to act simply to stroke her own ego or fulfill her power-hungry desires. I do think Dumbledore keeping Trelawney at Hogwarts made perfect sense with what we found out later. And yes, I'm well aware of Sirius's quote. Point taken!

[Heidi_hoho]

Oh course the world isn't seperated into good people and deatheaters, but there are still good people and death eaters in the world. Voldemort was doing everything possible to get the prophesy, trying to get it through Trelawney would probably be one of things he'd tried. To do that, he'd need her away from Dumbledore. He may have had Malfoy pay Fudge to do it by telling him that it was a power play, or he may have had different connections to the ministry. One thing that we should remember is that Fudge and Lucius are friends, so Lucius has most likely had Fudge over at some point in his life. In CoS, Harry says something like, "then you haven't met any decent wizards." (not the exact quote) and Dobby shakes his head. Since Dobby has probably met Fudge, his opinion is that Fudge isn't decent. I don't know if this means he's a death eater or just not a good person, but it's something to think about.

[Tanuki]

If Voldermort were trying so hard to get the prophecy, and he were thinking about Trealwney; don't you think he would have had that in his vision. yet, his focus was only on the department of mysteries. Trelawney never came into the picture, which leads me to believe that either he did not know she was the one who made it... or he did not want to risk trying to extricate her from Hogwarts. Getting Harry is easier, since he knows which buttons to press, but he knows little about Trelawney and had no way of actually getting to her

Second, the Order of the Phoenix is a very good intelligence network. They know most of the death eaters is action & would be watching the higher levels of the Ministry of Magic to make sure former Death Eaters were not among its ranks. If there were one, they would know about it. Yet, we have heard nothing of the like & J.K.R. would have definitely brought that to our attention in the last chapters.

Think about it this way; in OoTP, there are three opposing factions: (& yes, this is possible) The Ministry of Magic, Dumbledore's faction, and Voldermort's faction. By the end of the book, Voldermort's faction has forced Dumbledore's and the Ministry of Magic's to cooperate. Yet, Order of The Phoenix is essentially the war between Howarts and the Ministry of Magic

(Oh yeah, and if I don't play devil's advocate, who will? That and I subscribe to a very conservative interpretation of Harry Potter)

[carsten]

... Yet, Order of The Phoenix is essentially the war between Howarts and the Ministry of Magic...

Fully agreed!

JKR is keeping us on the brink of the 'real' war. I am curious if the HBP will have the war started? It has to happen in the remaining books. I am expecting the first battle to begin and end in book 6.

[Hagger 9003]

I think it will carsten. JKR mentioned a few times that muggles would notice people disappearing and such, so that seems like quite a reasonable suggestion. anyway, how will it be resolved otherwise? LV has nothing to lose, so now will start to give people cause to fear him, as he did before. that is his greatest weapon, fear. now, the order must combat him, and they need help from the ministry to succeed. they only number around 30 now, and the DEs are larger and have allies. So, the ministry wil have to change. we know that a new minister is in order, but will he be good or bad? this will have a profound effect on the books. if the new minister is good, he will help DD, and it will be alot easier for the order. however, if he is like fudge, power hungry and ambitious, it will be alot harder. who knows how it will go?

about trelawney, i think they may have wanted to gain access to her. it does seem a possibility. thinking about why she was expelled, it was just because she was going to pieces in lessons. however, hagrid was as well, and umbridge had a bias against him. so, i do believe that there may have been a factor influencing it. hmmmm...

[Herminny]

I don't think that umbridge would kick trelawney out so the DE could get to her, I don't think that she would side with voldy, she is horrible and evil but she also likes to be the one in control, i don't think she would deal all that well with taking orders at least not in the long run.

It would be interesting to see if voldy does go after Trelawney or he gies up on finding out the prophesy for the meantime (i'm thinking he will eventually find out from harry or something like in COS) I think he will start waging war, the ministry have admitted he is back i agree that he has nothing to loose by showing himself.

[Mistress Siana]

Second, the Order of the Phoenix is a very good intelligence network. They know most of the death eaters is action & would be watching the higher levels of the Ministry of Magic to make sure former Death Eaters were not among its ranks. If there were one, they would know about it.

Ahem...what about Rockwood then? Remember how surprised they were when they heard he was a spy? The info was big enough to buy Karkaroff his freedom. And then there was the fake Moody and a certain rat that betrayed the Potters right in front of the order's eyes. So much about efficiancy.

Neither side knows everything, otherwise the books would be boring.


I definitly think the Trelawney theory is possible, or even likely. There must be much much more Death Eaters than we know about so far, after all, they were supposed to outnumber the order 20 to 1 in the first war. It would be foolish to think that there's anything that Dumbledore does and that Voldemort wouldn't do as well; using spies is just one example.

In another Dark Lord's famous words: If only you knew the powers of the Dark Side...

About your second point: Why didn't Voldemort focus on it? It didn't work, simple as that. The plan of stealing the prophecy was a much better one.
I actually think that there is another good reason for wanting to keep Trelawney away from Hogwarts: She might make another inconveniant prophecy. And:

Yet, we have heard nothing of the like & J.K.R. would have definitely brought that to our attention in the last chapters.

You know, a subtle person might regard the Trelawney case as a definite hint from JKR...

And it wouldn't necessarily mean that Dolores Umbride (did you know her name means dark pain?) is a Death Eater herself. It's more likely that she followed orders from a Death Eater/somebody influenced by Death Eaters, and I for one don't trust Cornelius "Voldem...ahem, I mean You-Know-Who, of course" Fudge one bit.

[Tanuki]

Ahem...what about Rockwood then? Remember how surprised they were when they heard he was a spy? The info was big enough to buy Karkaroff his freedom. And then there was the fake Moody and a certain rat that betrayed the Potters right in front of the order's eyes. So much about efficiancy.

Um, that was a long time ago... and as for pettigrew and moody, the order of the phoenix wasn't around for those events, were they. Dumbledore only assembled them after GoF, so its only now that they have the data they do

I definitly think the Trelawney theory is possible, or even likely. There must be much much more Death Eaters than we know about so far, after all, they were supposed to outnumber the order 20 to 1 in the first war. It would be foolish to think that there's anything that Dumbledore does and that Voldemort wouldn't do as well; using spies is just one example.

Then why did Harry's visions have nothing to do with Trelawney? Why did he not attempt to enter Harry's mind and go talk to trelawney before that? Apparently he could do it, so why was Trelawney never brought up?

About your second point: Why didn't Voldemort focus on it? It didn't work, simple as that. The plan of stealing the prophecy was a much better one. I actually think that there is another good reason for wanting to keep Trelawney away from Hogwarts: She might make another inconveniant prophecy. And:

okay, but he would have thought it, and Harry would have known. It's not like Voldermort was choosing what to show Harry. Harry hacked into Voldermort's head, so he should have seen something... yet, no Trelawny

And it wouldn't necessarily mean that Dolores Umbride (did you know her name means dark pain?) is a Death Eater herself. It's more likely that she followed orders from a Death Eater/somebody influenced by Death Eaters, and I for one don't trust Cornelius "Voldem...ahem, I mean You-Know-Who, of course" Fudge one bit.

Didn't Dumbledore and Sirius and that already point out that Fudge was not working for Voldermort or anything like that. And as for a subtle person, a subtle person would reason that there doesn't only need to be two sides in a war. Like I said before, OoTP was the war between Voldermort's faction, Dumbledore's faction, and The Ministry of Magic. That's the whole point of it. Much like in real life, the ministry did not want to acknowledge that its peace would not last, or that they were wrong. That's why all that stuff in the fifth book happened[/quote]

[Mistress Siana]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why would Harry have seen something about Trelawney in Voldemort's head? It's not that Harry sees everything Voldemort thinks. And Voldemort did pretty much choose what Harry could see.

And why would the Order be more efficiant now than in the first war? The only difference is that half of the old crowd is dead. They didn't see Pettigrew was a traitor back then, best friends suspected each other. They do not know everything, that's not a point about which one can argue, that's a fact.

[Tanuki]

Voldermort was only selective when he figured out what Harry was up to. Up until teh christmas incident, Harry was seeing what Voldermort was focused on. That means, if Voldermort's plans included Trelawney, wouldn't his visions have included Trelawney?

Also, if you can admit that the order doesn't know everything; why is it so hard for you to believe that Voldermort hasn't planned everything and isn't behind every bad thing that happens?

[Un'Anima Persa]

I don't agree; from what I know of Umbridge, I think it was a move based on two things.

We all know Umbridge is a sadistic thing, and she would prey on the weaker teachers. So, she went after one of the weakest teachers and found that Trelawney cracked before Hagrid. Hagrid, at least held his own against the woman. He did stick to a good lesson plan and presented himself well enough to get over her criteria. Trelawney had to actually have a reason to get rid of hagrid, or else it would have been obvious what her real reason was

Now her other reason was much more obvious. she was tryign to pruge the school of all the teachers she could that she thought were loyal to Dumbledore; both Trelawny and Hagrid being obvious marks. she couldn't get McGonnagal or the others because they were very good teachers and the parents and governers would have instantly had her removed if she acted so openly. She wanted Dumbledore's job and she wanted Dumbledore removed. she even went so far as to recruit students openly opposed to Dumbledore to get what she wanted, even though she did not trust them in the slightest.

In the end, remember what Sirius said. "the world isn't only seperated into good people and deathe eaters."

After thinking the subject over, I most agree with this... she wanted a job, and wasnt gonna let anyone stop her... like Percy! so she just started doing everything easy that wouldnt get her killed to get the job... I also think that maybe there are more reasons... but small things... not big enough to actually play a role in the books