Dumbledore gone bad?

[Mistress Siana]

Not saying I believe anything, but re-reading GoF, I noticed something.
First of all: Dumbledore never lies. But sometimes, he expresses things in a way that what he says is technically wrong but interpreted in a way that suits his intentions. Now, in Snape's trial, he says the following:

"Professor Snape joined our side and became a spy long before Voldemort's downfall. Today, he's no more a Death Eater than I am."

The obvious interpretation is that Snape became a spy for the order, but technically, it's not what he says. If you look at it from another perspective, namely that Dumbledore and Snape are both Death Eaters, it makes just as much sense. I really cannot picture him as evil, but why does he never say "Snape became a spy for the Order", only "Snape became a spy for our side"? Why not "he is not a Death Eater", but "he's no more a Death Eater than I am"? Strange things going on there..

[Fool on the hill]

That's good, Siana.

In some book a character says, "You can avoid telling the truth without lying" (haha I know, that's very precise, but I can't remember the book's title, well it was from Hohlbein) - anyway, I like that sentence and I think it's true.

When I look at the quote, I think it would be practically a lie if he meant it like that (he's a Death Eater, Snape's a Death Eater). I don't know. I would consider it a lie. Dumbledore is (seems to be ) the good-good-GOOD guy, so it gives his words more weight when he says "if Snape's a Death Eater, then I am too!".

But! the first sentence is interesting - it could mean that Snape joined "their side" (the Order, the "good" side) but became a spy for Voldemort. And because that was ages ago, it's over and everything. That's another topic, though, and I don't really believe it. Nah.

[Meg Boyd]

I honestly think that DD cannot be bad. That, in regards to the plot line, would be suicide. Harry doesn't need another fallen role model. Honestly I think he is the book's medium for knowledge, the good and the bad. The books can be quoted with, "The is more in the world than just good and evil" (or something like that)...I think DD is not so much good or bad, as just knowledgable of the two and uses his knowledge and WISDOM to guide himself and others making choices and whatnot. I'm not sure what he does is either good or bad. He is just knowledge.

[Broccoli]

The other day I visited JKR's site again and I noticed that when she speaks of her favourite characters she says that she loves Dumbledore, meaning his personality, not just that she likes writing him as in case of Snape. This makes me think that he really can't be evil!

I like your comment, Meg. He is a character that rather belongs to mythology where there is actually no good or bad...

[Mistress Siana]

Well, I don't really believe he's bad either, I just can't picture him that way. But what he's said seems strange, nevertheless, especially as JKR normally chooses her words so carefully and little things get a great importance later on. It's the combination of a lot of little notes that made me think is the first place, like DD's statement in combination with the fact that eye contact is needed for legillimency and Snape staring at the ceiling while talking about Voldemort's return...

[Just Mom]

I would imagine the suspcicions about Dumbledore came from one of JKR's most recent interviews when she said (something to this effect) "a better question to ask is why Dumbledore did not kill Voldemort."

But DD being secretly evil is too obvious for JKR's style. As with Lupin, she speaks of him with great affection and well, frankly, there's just no way. I say this looking at it through the eyes of an adult and someone who's read a lot. He's not the kind of character that you set a precedent with and then change it.

This might be too deep here, but C.S. Lewis once wrote that we should not say, "God is always good," because our view of "good" is sometimes not correct and sometimes what God does that is good, is seen by us as very disappointing. Lewis said it's better to say, "God is always God."

Dumbledore is a "god-type" character...someone else very accurately said he's almost mythological. Dumbledore might be complex. Dumbledore might do some things that seem questionable, like leaving Harry with the Dursleys, which was painful for Harry. But Dumbledore will not be shown to be "evil" during the series. Nevermind that millions of children trust him as a character they love to read.

I do think it's very possible, likely even, that Dumbledore will die before the series is over. He is old afterall, but JKR will write him a fine death that is dignified and fitting before he passes the mantle on to the next generation.

[Mistress Siana]

Very true...At first sight, Dumbledore might seem like the sweet-loving personification of goodness, but I'd say this characterization is much too shallow. The fact that he's incredibly warmhearted doesn't mean he's naive or a fool. After all he's a leader in a war, and he must be well aware of the responibility that comes with being the only one who has the power to fight (not defeat, Harry's a special case) Voldemort. He knows that sometimes the end justifies the means and does what he has to, even if it breaks his heart. He knew that Harry would have to suffer, or that it's sometimes necessary to assign people to a task that will most certainly kill them (just imagine what will happen to Snape if Voldemort discovers his betrayal). I really had to swallow when Dumbledore told Harry in OotP that love was his biggest mistake because it stopped him from being objective. I think in his heart, Dumbledore must be a very lonely man.

[Just Mom]

I really had to swallow when Dumbledore told Harry in OotP that love was his biggest mistake because it stopped him from being objective. I think in his heart, Dumbledore must be a very lonely man.

Now this is a very interesting idea. It's interesting because it opens up backstory information that we don't have. How old is Dumbledore? What was his life before becoming professor/headmaster? Has he had a family? Wife? Children? Or did he, like "Papa Elf" in the movie "Elf" get so engrossed in something that he "forgot to settle down."

Most everyone that is given the gift/curse of tremendous power, is lonely.

Dumbledore loves Harry. Why? What connection does he have to him that runs deeper than just an administrator to a student or as someone who knew his parents?

Oops. I fear I've gotten off topic.[/quote]

[Mistress Siana]

The fear of being off topic spoils the best discussions.

I think he sees the son he's never had in Harry, or maybe he sees himself. Dumbledore knows better than anyone else how it feels when people expect you to safe the world, when the things that determine your life are beyond everything your friends would understand.

Most everyone that is given the gift/curse of tremendous power, is lonely

True, for Dumbledore and for Harry.

[Just Mom]

Okay. I've had entirely too much time on my hands lately and have been spending too much time at the lexicon site. While I was reading some of JKR's comments on DD, I began to wonder, what is going on there? In spite of my posts on this topic that DD could not possibly be "on the dark side" and I still don't believe that, there is something peculiar in JKR's rather cryptic comments regarding DD, LV and a few other things. Someone asked why DD had a "look of triumph" on his face towards the end of GoF after he learns that LV now has some of Harry's blood before he goes back to looking "old and tired" and says, that LV has "overcome that barrier for now" and JKR thought that was an excellent question, along with why DD didn't kill LV, (but we know he can't, right? Only Harry can do that?) so now I'm a bit mixed up. What could be going on there?

I hate feeling a bit suspicious of DD. He's so wonderful. Perhaps this is just another one of JKR's red herrings.