Revelation in The Fourth Book???

[riddle_02]

(It might be a good idea to re-read chapter 36 of GoF entirely for this to make more sense... )

Please take a closer look at first page of chapter 36- notice Dumbledore mentions to Snape to tell Cornelius Fudge:
'I will be in the hospital wing in half an hour's time if he needs me.'

Dumbledore takes Harry to his office to question him (blah blah), then takes him and sirius (who's in dog form) back to hospital wing (blah blah..)

But *then* he leaves saying "I will be back to see you as soon as I have met with Fudge."

The next time we see Dumbledore is when he enters the hospital wing following the yells of McGonagall, Snape and Fudge after Crouch has been de-souled- so I couldn't help thinking...where was Dumbledore

WHY FUDGE AND DUMBLEDORE DIDN'T MEET AT ALL
Dumbledore, in order to see Fudge, would have gone to Moody's office, where Crouch was, (because it was where Dumbledore had instructed snape to tell Fudge where to go. Fudge was informed by snape, obviously, otherwise the soul-suck wouldn't have happened). So Dumbledore would have gone to the office and therefore known about the dementor - excludes possibility of any discussion or meeting b/w Fudge and Dumbledore. (**see last note)


TIMEWISE
We don't know how much time, exactly, has passed between Dumbledore's exit from the hospital wing and his return, but it enough time to allow Fudge to bring Crouch a dementor. The Weasleys were still with harry so it couldn't have been way too long, but a few hours could be allowed, otherwise harry wouldn't have woken up under the sleeping draught. The longer the time, the more mystery surrounds what Dumbledore was doing...

REPEAT: DUMBLEDORE *WASN'T* LOOKING FOR FUDGE
For those who didn't pick it up above- I'll re-cap: Dumbledore *knows* fudge is with crouch- (because he sent snape to tell fudge where crouch was, and fudge was obviously told otherwise he couldn't have taken his dementor to crouch in the first place.) If Dumbledore had wanted to find Fudge he would have had to have gone to crouch- and thus known about the dementor

WHO ELSE DUMBLEDORE WASN'T WITH
Maybe you are thinking- Dumbledore went to see hagrid and maxime- nope, he mentions to mcgonagall pg. 617 to take both to his office later

Dumbledore couldn't have been with Sirius (he was in hospital wing with harry as a dog) snape and Mcgonagall were with Fudge/Crouch, karkaroff had already run away- (snape mentioned it to fudge on pg. 616

Maybe you are *still *thinking- Dumbledore obviously went to see cedric's parents,duh! he must have run into them…wrong! Flip to page 619 of the same chapter, Dumbledore: "I must see the diggory's." unless you think he'd been interrupted by the yells while speaking to them for the first time… possible, but a bit awkward, and wouldn't he have then said something along the lines of "I must return to speak more with the Diggory's"


------------------

Well, is it just looking too much into it- that inconsistencies like this aren't supposed to be picked up by the 'young readers'? (us? young readers? hah!) But you'd think after the wand-order typo in Chapter 34 the book would be combed through...; So is it purposeful foreshadowing- is there more to Dumbledore than we presently see at surface level Only time- (and the publication of book 5,6 and 7) will tell.

But now here is a question for all of you fans- where do *you* think Dumbledore was? Post here or email me- I lurve email!! (anne_02@go.com)


** But even so, if they had talked, how could Fudge and Dumbledore have discussed either the tournament/Cedric/Crouch *or* Harry without mentioning Voldemort? When Dumbledore informed Fudge, back in the hospital wing, that Cedric was murdered by Voldemort "Fudge looked as though someone had just swung a heavy club into his face"--> that's a pretty weird way to react if he'd been told by Dumbledore previous to this.

PS:
For the first line i reference (on first page of ch36) 'if he needs me' --the line isn't really part of the argument as to Dumbledore's whereabouts- I only wanted to include it at the start of my theory to use it in the way I think its meant to be applied in the book- that is, it sets a context: by Dumbldore mentioning Fudge *may* want to speak with him we know: --Dumbledore thinks there's possibility that Fudge will want to talk/ Dumbledore wants to talk- isn't avoiding Fudge for whatever reason

So even if the first line wasn't a definite command to bring Fudge to the infirmary,Dumbledore still leaves the hospital wing with the much more definite 'I will be back to see you as soon as I have met with Fudge.' The reader knows he's been thinking about a talk with Fudge since *before* he even questioned Harry, and its even more unlikely he's just not going to bother going up to crouch's office to see Fudge. Dumbledore by this stage, being as wise as he is, could have possibly been a bit suspicious as to why Fudge hasn't been to see him yet-->or at least be wondering why its taking so long to finish questioning Barty Crouch Jr. See the original post's 'TIMEWISE' point, which explains why I think it was a substantial amount of time that passed when Dumbledore left and returned to the infirmary. The longer the time, the more suspicious Dumbledore would be as well, according to my weird and wonderful logic!...

Generally I believe that the Dumbledore we've come to know in the first four books isn't a person who would just decide to *not* go and see the Minister of Magic after the surrounding events- not without a very good reason...

PSS: Oh -i dont really think he'd be speaking to other teachers- when all of the teachers that are the most important to the plot- eg: snape and mcgonagall- are accounted for elsewhere. why would he need to see someone like flitwick or sprout is it purposeful misdirection on JK's behalf? Are these teachers more significant than we assume? anyone's guess... maybe trelawney called for him.. (predicting??) hmmm...

[Scellanis]

well he may need to go see sprout...she is the head of hufflepuff which is Cedric's house....

but thats just in reference to your last paragraph.....the rest of your post has me very confused, i hadnt even noticed it......i need to read the book again.....

[tiggirl]

Wow, that's a good point. I have no clue. I plan to reread the series soon as finals are done, I'll get back to you then.

[Sacred Guardian]

i hadn't noticed it, it is probably just an error the editors didn't pick up on

[riddle_02]

I've had people say there are no 'wierd things/inconsistencies' in this chapter:
The time b/w Dumbledore leaving and coming back to the infirmary is, in my mind, a major 'wierd thing' in ch36--> Firstly Snape was sent to get Fudge before Harry was questioned- Fudge was on the school grounds, so when Dumbldore left Harry at the infirmary and set off to meet with Fudge, Fudge would have been with Crouch jr. by that time, after "summoning a dementor" for his "personal safety" (i guess it can be excused that the time it took for harry to be questioned was about the time needed for a dementor to be summoned- b/c Fudge was only with Crouch for a short time so the dementor could give its kiss)- so from there the whole thing should have played out pretty quickly:

But...moments before the entrance of Fudge, Snape, McGonagall, and Dumbledore, Harry wakes up, feeling sure its still night-time and like he hadn't been asleep "very long"- but isn't it a little awkward to have something who was just 'dosed up' on dreamless sleeping potion *and* who is as physically and psychologically exhausted as harry was- to have been woken by distant yells after only a mere matter of minutes?

Which means, (if you believe sleeping draughts are only good for 5-minutes of rest), that Dumbledore would have headed straight for crouch and doubled back after hearing the yelling of Fudge and co.

Note: because I believe more time passed, I emphasised the reasons that dumbledore could not be excused as wondering around looking for fudge in my original post. however, of course, if you support the above 5-minute-theory then the emphasis becomes irrelevant. So it all depends on your choice:

either: harry's potion was about as successful as lockhart repairing a broken arm, or* 'while harry was sleeping' it took fudge ages to get a dementor, and in the latter case- we *still* dont know where dumbledore was, couldn't he have spoken to Fudge while they were waiting for the dementor- so Dumbledore could have prevented it entering the castle in the first place? didn't he ask what was going on with Fudge *at all*? It just doesn't seem like Dumbledore logic to go "oh well, i'll see fudge whenever i feel like it, my pensieve and my pretty phoenix await me, to the magic-mobile, away!"

maybe its part of the 'dumbledore's older and therefore less powerful' reasoning- which i say is *lame*

or..are time turners messing with the books again?? eek.

[Neo]

I trust more the potions theory, because maybe it didn't have the effect in Harry it should, because all the chemicals running through his body because all the things that happened, and also Mr.s Weasly ask all to be quiet because they will wake up Harry, that means that it was a lot of noise that only the yells of MM.

[Holly Golightly]

Very very intersting theory! Unfortunately, I dont' h ave the books with me till about mon/tuesday, so I can't read over that chapter, but I mean to then read this all again.

So with that in mind, I just want to say I'm not sure if this is right, or has any meaning, but I remember thinking this when I read the book the first time. *note, that was a rather large intro!!!* How did Fudge get a dementor there so quickly??? That just baffeled me.

Anyways, as said, no books herer, so I can't go and check, so forgive me if the answer is obvious!

[Neo]

I kept thinking about this tjeory, it is very good, and I elieve that the potion didn't have an effect of more than half an hour. But what if DD went to the room Barty was, saw Fudge wasn't there and went to find him to some other place, and meanwhile Fudge used this time to take the dementor to where Barty and MM were and did what happened. Then they all head to the hospital wing, DD heard the nopise while still looking for Fudge, and there it is.

[riddle_02]

Thanks for the feedback!!!

I'm still not going for the 5-minute-theory (or the 1/2hr theory) , i had noticed reading the chapter that harry didn't drink all the potion. but now i've had someone (on another board) point out this fact

Fudge had to wait for the dementor to arrive (no idea how long that takes) and find his way up to Moody's office. Could it have taken him an hour to do all that? I think so. I don't know how fast dementors travel (or how they travel for that matter).

so i have another reason for standing by my, uh, anti-5-minute-theory... (aren't my theory's titles imaginitive?!)
how, if you believe hary was asleep from a few minutes to half an hour- and it took 1/2hr to question him beforehand, *how* did crouch get an *azkaban guard* to hogwarts in that itty bitty time?- can they apparate? (no not actually into the grounds, i know, i know thanks hermione! but just outside the grounds?) that's a bloody scary thought- soul-sucking creatures of doom just popping up wherever- and they couldn't possibly anyway, how would the ministry control them from going to mainland for some 'draining happiness' parties? i've always assumed they can only get off the island by boat- high security for both the prisoners and the guards... anyway, if they had to do it that way and it took a lot longer, we're back to the anti-theory- woohoo! Are dementors kept other places, closer to hogwarts? That woudn't make people too happy...
Is Fudge evil? (just thought i'd add that last bit for the sake of it!)

[Neo]

That's a very good question, why did Fudge take a dementor to Hogwarts?; because he didn't have a clue about Barty being at Hogwarts, or something similar (So this teory helps should be more focused to see if Fudge is bad, not DD).

[Holly Golightly]

Well, the book says that Fudge 'summoned' the dementor... wonder how long that takes?

And I think that Fudge might end up either being evil, or more likely, refusing to believe taht Voldie rose and simply doing stupid things that help out the badies, like at the end of 4. Did that make sense? I don't think that he will actually join the bad guys, or become a death eater, but I think that the decisions that he makes, while he thinks that they are helping, will turn out being of aid to the bad guys... All the while though, he will be convinced that he's helping save everyone!

[Neo]

I was just thinking, if Fudge in this momneto refuses to accept Voldemort's return is ok, but in little time it will be revealed that Voldemort has como back, so then if he is not evil he will have to accept DD was right, no? And then maybe they can cooperate.

[Holly Golightly]

It's not just the refusing to admit that Voldie's returned I think, but also that he's making stupid decisions, that he believes to be right. Like not being able to see that the dementors will join side with Voldie and thus leaving them incharge of Axkaban, and not wanting to even consider talkingto the giants...

I really dont' believe that Fudge will go bad, just make stupid decisions!

[Neo]

Well yeah, that's something that we infer at the end of GoF, the dementor seems to be a great problem in the next book, surely Lod Voldemort will take Azkaban as his first step.
But when this happens Fudge won't have any chance to disobey DD anymore, and maybe will be of more help (as surely he is a powerful wizard)

[Holly Golightly]

I don't think that Fudge is necessarily a great wizard, like DD or anything. Maybe he's jsut a good leader/administrator?

And I cant' see him agreeing with DD's sugestions after the dementors get out, *as I'm guessing they will*. I think that he will twist that in his own mind to somehow come out blaming DD for what happened... people are like that sometimes!