Messrs

[Athena Appleton]

Well, even if the life-debt isn't mentioned in the movie, Harry still saved Wormtail's life, so it could still be used in future movies, I think...

I just wonder how much of that life-debt is of importance. I don't think it's any kind of magical bond or anything, just the decent thing to do, to repay someone who saved your life. If Wormtail is anything, he's a coward. If this life-debt thing is really just the decent thing to do, then I wonder if Wormtail might make some half-hearted attempt to save Harry, but give up when he gets afraid of Voldemort and really not wind up doing Harry any favor at all. I mean, he's already kind of done that already. In Goblet of Fire, he made a half-hearted attempt to get Voldemort to use someone other than Harry, but gave up immediately. What if this whole bit is in there to give us (and Harry) a false sense of security?

[Phinea Rogue]

It seems to be it's of great importance, especially when looking to Snape and his debt to James. He so much wanted to get rid of it, he really tried to save Harry's life (in first book). I wonder if there're any consequences when someone refuses to act according to a life-debt.

[Deedra Malfoy]

Hey DragonMaster, i thought I was the only one too.

I like this place. *Sighs*

[TDM]

lol Deedra. call me TDM. much easier to type.

also, i've thought of the life-debt. what i've come up with is Wormtail distracting LV enough for LV to kill Peter, giving Harry the chance to take down Voldy. however, i still think Lupin's a goner. he'll just die. all the Messrs will die...that's my theory.

[Athena Appleton]

It seems to be it's of great importance, especially when looking to Snape and his debt to James. He so much wanted to get rid of it, he really tried to save Harry's life (in first book). I wonder if there're any consequences when someone refuses to act according to a life-debt.

I think that this could show the big difference between the way Snape is and the way Pettigrew is.

Even though Snape is foul in almost every aspect, he felt a certain obligation to James, which never got paid off until P/SS when Snape saved Harry.

Looking at Pettigrew's personality, it's entirely possible, I think, that he would feel no such obligation. If it is, in fact, honor-bound only, then people who are not honorable probably wouldn't do it.

Actually, my guess is that Wormtail will give a half-hearted attempt to spare Harry's life, but will cave. Before he caves, though, Voldemort would realize what Wormtail is doing and will kill him. It buys Harry a little bit of time, but that's about it. And I don't think that he will suddenly do anything heroic by doing this. I think he'll try to back out and not be able to.

I do think all four of the Marauders will be dead at the end of the series.

[carsten]

I just wonder how much of that life-debt is of importance. I don't think it's any kind of magical bond or anything, just the decent thing to do, ...

I think it really is a magical bond. And Wormtail will try to escape from it, but has to fulfill his destiny: classical tragedy.

So in my opinion Wormtail will (accidentally?) kill LV, thus helping Harry. The signs for Lupin are not good. It is hard to imagine a happy ending for a werewolf.

Carsten

[TDM]

So in my opinion Wormtail will (accidentally?) kill LV, thus helping Harry. The signs for Lupin are not good. It is hard to imagine a happy ending for a werewolf.

lol, Cartsen. i agree about the Lupin part, but i have to go with Athena on this one. i think Wormtail will try, and fail, to save Harry. however, it will give Harry the time to get away, or kill LV, or whatever. so, in reality, the bond will be fufilled.

[carsten]

lol, Cartsen. i agree about the Lupin part, but i have to go with Athena on this one. ...

TDM, you surprise me. You go with Athena on this one? She says no magical bond while I say there is one. And then you describe a likely ending, how the magical bond can be fulfilled. I am confused.

Carsten

[Phinea Rogue]

I too believe that there's some magical bond. What is it that Dumbledore says to Harry in the (not sure) first book? He says something about it, but I can't remember what exactly. But he says this in PoA: "Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt...When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them..."

A certain bond, he doesn't say a magical bond, but I think there's more to it that just honour.

[TDM]

whoops. i meant that i disagreed with Athena on the whole magical bond thing. i just re-read PoA, and here's a quote from DD on the subject of harry saving wormtail:

"This is magic at its most deep, its most inpenatrable power, Harry. There may be a day when you are very glad you saved his life."

or something along those lines.

[Deedra Malfoy]

Very nice, TDM. Smooth as they come *snickers*

I have a gut feeling that MWPP will all die, Lupin by Pettigrew's hand (ya know, the silver one?), but who will kill Pettigrew?

*Goes off to a corner to think*

[Athena Appleton]

*shrug* I could be wrong. I suppose... not likely though...

j/k

I read that part about this being the deepest magic, or whatever Dumbledore said, I'm too lazy to look it up right now to mean more that it was the bonds of humanity, rather than the bonds of hocus-pocus kind of magic... Remember the good old days, when "hocus-pocus" was a magical term???

I think that Dumbledore realizes something that few other wizards recognize: there are more powerful kinds of magic than what can be learned in books and performed with wands or potions. I think he considers love, loyalty, friendship, etc. to be equally strong, or not stronger, forms of magic. These are the kinds of magic that even people without a drop of wizarding blood can have, and that's the most important kind of all.

If I'm right about this, the bond of decency and honor, not a magical bond, could be what he was talking about there.

Anyway...

Carsten, even if I'm wrong and you're right about most of this, how can you justify your theory that Wormtail would, in any way, kill Voldemort, given what we know about the prophesy? I can see that he could be a help with it, buy Harry some time perhaps, but not kill him.

[carsten]

...If I'm right about this, the bond of decency and honor, not a magical bond, could be what he was talking about there.

Athena, it is a noble thought of yours, but for most of us, a bond of decency and honor is not very strong. If LV comes up and tells you: "Do or Die!" - what would you chose? Life or honor? So it must be some bond enforced by magical powers not under control of the inidividual.
If Wormtail had the choice between honor on one side and power / fear on the other - what would he do? I am afraid I would choose the latter 10 times out of 10.

Carsten, even if I'm wrong and you're right about most of this, how can you justify your theory that Wormtail would, in any way, kill Voldemort, given what we know about the prophesy? I can see that he could be a help with it, buy Harry some time perhaps, but not kill him.

Good point to remind me of the prophecy.
Actually I haven't thought about the details, but your idea about Wormtail (accidentally, due to the magical bond?) assisting Harry during final showdown is certainly a good one. I am even more curious now about the upcoming books than before.

It is really remarkable, how someone can imagine a story which unfolds over seven books!

Regards
Carsten

[Athena Appleton]

...If I'm right about this, the bond of decency and honor, not a magical bond, could be what he was talking about there.

Athena, it is a noble thought of yours, but for most of us, a bond of decency and honor is not very strong. If LV comes up and tells you: "Do or Die!" - what would you chose? Life or honor? So it must be some bond enforced by magical powers not under control of the inidividual.
If Wormtail had the choice between honor on one side and power / fear on the other - what would he do? I am afraid I would choose the latter 10 times out of 10.

Don't feel bad, if I'm honest with myself, I'd have to say that I'd probably have the same kind of track record.
The thing is, though, that in some situations, what good, decent people wind up doing is the right thing, and while forever afterwards, they realize the dangers involved, at the time, they did have the strength to do the right thing.

My point, though, is that while certain people (including Sirius, Snape, etc.) may have this decency that would give them strength, not everyone does. Wormtail is clearly not as decent and honorable a person as even Snape, who's a jerk, but at least he's an honorable jerk.

If you think about it, in real life, that bond is still there. It can usually be assumed that if you save someone's life, that person will feel certain obligations to you, at least until they are able to sort of repay you. But while I think that's the case generally, it's certainly not the case in every circumstance.

Dumbledore may be assuming that those feelings of indebtedness (is that a word??? ) and decency are actually in Wormtail, but they aren't. Or they aren't to the point that he would have the courage to do much about it.

I admit, you could be right just as much as I could... it just all depends on what Dumbledore is talking about... guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Oh yeah, I do have a question... if you believe this is a magical bond, are you saying the person has to actually save the person, they have to try, and to what degree do they have to try? Would Wormtail be fulfilling his obligation by simply suggesting once that Voldemort not kill Harry, but then backing off, or is it like Snape, who kind of continued to do stuff until he was actually able to save Harry's life (to fulfill his debt to James)?

[TDM]

true. but now i have a new scenario:



Harry is lying on the ground, panting from the effort during his duel with Voldemort. His wand, lying twenty feet away from him, is no good now, as Lord Voldemort himself is standing above him, ready to deliver the final blow.

"You see, Harry," Voldemort whispered. "It's just like the prohpecy. 'Neither can live while the other one survives.' So...let this prophecy be fufilled!" Wormtail, who was standing near Voldemort, snapped his eyes wide open as if he just knew the meaning of this.

"I must fufill mine..." Wormtail said, realizing what he had to do.

"AVADA KEDAVRA," Voldemort cried, pointing his wand at Harry's chest. However, Wormtail leapt in front of Harry, taking the Killing Curse from Voldemort's wand. Harry saw Wormtail take the hit, but couldn't take the time to realize what he had just done. He ducked underneath Voldemort's arm.

"CRUCIO," Voldemort cried, aiming at the running Harry. Harry dived at his wand, and quickly faced Voldemort.

"Protego," he muttered, creating a temporary invisible shield around him. "Now...let's fufill this prophecy..."



anyway, that's how i think it could play out. so, yeah. anybody agree? disagree?