Triumph in DD's eyes

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Oh so he can't really live can he?



I'm afraid that doesn't do it for me - just because your life is extremely busy trying to destroy the personification of all evil - it doesn't mean your not alive.

Harry isn't alive for another reason. For a deeper reason than just not being a bit unhappy about being trapped in a neverending spiral of death.

I mean, I don't actually know what the reason is... I imagine it'll be one of the major shock revelations of Deathly Hallows. But hopefully it won't be something as thoughtless as Harry not living because he's not [b]living[/b]. Because he's not enjoying himself.

If what you say is true, if Voldemort suddenly decided to just stop everything and stop trying to kill Harry, then the prophecy would be made null and void.

Which is its major flaw.

The other reason, whatever it is, must mean that Harry nor Voldemort cannot live while the other survives, EVEN IF THEY STOP TRYING TO KILL EACH OTHER.

[Run Away!!!]

I'm afraid that doesn't do it for me - just because your life is extremely busy trying to destroy the personification of all evil - it doesn't mean your not alive.

There IS a major difference between 'being alive' and 'living'. The prophecy says nothing about being alive.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Concise Oxford Dictionary (Ninth Edition ):

alive: 1: living, not dead.
Though I concede the second definition is: existing, continuing; in operation or action.

The first definition appears to be referring to living,
The second definition appears to be referring to surviving.

So it means both. I suppose as you say:

There IS a major difference between 'being alive' and 'living'. The prophecy says nothing about being alive.

I would say no there isn't in regard to def. 1, and yes there is with def. 2.

You could say, there's a major difference between being alive, and being alive.
But I do not concede there is a fundamental difference between living, and living.

Funnily enough, the definition of live is "that is alive".

What Voldemort has always failed to realise is the difference between living and surviving, and thank you for bring up the point by the way... I've hit something here!

-Voldemort can't tell the difference between the first and second definitions of alive.

[Simatra]

Yes, LV blind spot is the spot where something could possibly kill him, he dosen't think it thourgh like us. But instead he took it a litle to seriuosly.

[sorcerer83]

phoenix i think u misunderstood me a little - and misunderstood the point of the prophecy alot...

what i tried to say is that the only reason that this prophecy was really fulfilled is because it couldnt not have been. it is a prophecy based on pure psychology - of vol and harry - so in that way - it just cant happen that

Voldemort suddenly decided to just stop everything and stop trying to kill Harry

and therefore the prophecy will never

be made null and void

.

but - just as dd explained in the most important part of hbp and probably of all the books - it isnt predetermined, it isnt written in the stars - it isnt cosmic, theologic, it is very simply - humane...

so yes the prophecy could be made untrue, but it just wont.

and as for

a deeper reason than just not being a bit unhappy about being trapped in a neverending spiral of death

what deeper reason can u ask for? can u really call harrys life living? can u call it a real, a whole life? everyone he loves - systematically is being killed, he constantly suffers whether by vol or by students or the newspapers and he knows he cant go on with his life without seeking and killing a very powerful and evil wizard...

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

can u really call harrys life living? can u call it a real, a whole life? everyone he loves - systematically is being killed, he constantly suffers whether by vol or by students or the newspapers and he knows he cant go on with his life without seeking and killing a very powerful and evil wizard...

Yeah, I can. He's living. He's just living horribly. Not well... terribly. But he's living.

Except that the prophecy dictates he can't be. (because Voldemort is surviving) Which is why I do think there's another unknown factor.

I see perfectly clear what you're getting at, I just utterly disagree. When the prophecy says neither can live while the other survives, I personally do not think that it means the same as you think:

I think it literally means that neither can be living, alive... while the other is around.

I do not think it means that Harry can't live because he's not living a

real, a whole life

, whilst Voldemort survives.

As for me believing that the characters is the Harry Potter story can't escape their fate... you misinterpreted me completely. I meant that if there is that other mysterious reason, then that means that even if they stop trying to kill each other they can't escape the prophecy.

To put it clearer, hopefully... what I mean in short is that if my interpretation is correct, then they cannot escape the prophecy because the reason Harry cannot live is a physical, magical thing. It's the definitions of live again...

Whatever the case, neither of us is in the position to say the other has misinterpreted anything... because neither of us know the correct interpretation. Yet. I'll concede if I'm wrong... but we'll have to wait until July 21.

I'm not-so-quietly confident...

[youknowwho]

You're forgetting the esential rule of prophesys: They are all self fullfilling.

Meaning that the only reason the become true is because people believe in them and because of this belief they will unconsiosly work to make the prophacy come true.

Therefor if you made a prophacy and didn't tell anyone about it it would not come true.

If what you say is true, if Voldemort suddenly decided to just stop everything and stop trying to kill Harry, then the prophecy would be made null and void.

If they stopped trying to kill eachother it would become void because they are keeping it alive.

However they will not stop trying to kill eachother because they both believe that the prophacy will come true even so. Also the know that if one stops attempting to kill the other will kill him.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

If they stopped trying to kill eachother it would become void because they are keeping it alive.

I'll wrap up what I'm saying here in a nutshell...



Okay, what I'm saying here is that the prophecy isn't just a prophecy. It oversteps the boundaries. It's not just a forecast of what will (or won't, could or couldn't WHATEVER!) happen.

The line is: "for neither can live while the other survives"

What I'm saying, finally, is that that isn't a prophecy. I believe that that is a present state, things as they are.

Neither can live while the other survives.

It's not prophecy (now... - maybe 16 years ago it was when Harry wasn't born) it's fact.

Neither can live while the other survives.

And I think it's valid now, in the present, and therefore is no longer prophecy and therefooooore... they can't choose.

Neither can live while the other survives. Can't meaning not able to.

Can. It's present tense, and it's valid now.

And that's why I believe it's unchangeable. Because it's not prophecy. That part. There is a physical/magical reason why neither can live while the other survives.

[Run Away!!!]

DD actually says to Harry, that it doesn't have to be true and that not all prophesys are fulfilled. But he asked Harry about his killing LV and Harry realized that he wanted to be the one to kill him and won't stop trying to do it even though he doesn't have to.

[Simatra]

Right. Prophecys just confrem what may happen, there not all reliable.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Yes and yes, to both of you.

But the point is I don't believe the piece I'm referring to is prophecy.

It might have been 16 years ago, but it isn't now... either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives.

It could've been changed 16 years ago - but it can't be now.

It's not just that neither can live while the other survives...

It's that neither is living while the other is surviving.

----------------------------------------
So Harry isn't living.. and I'm saying that at the moment Harry was "marked" something happened that meant he became not fully alive. Prophecy or not, unavoidably not alive, because... [see below box]
---------------------------------------

What I've said there last leads to the discussion about the definitions of alive, and I've already stated my point there:

----------------------------------------
... It's a physical or magical reason why he can't be alive, not just that he's trapped in a neverending cycle of death.
------------------------------------------

It's unavoidable because it's a real (physical, magical) thing, and you can't change a real, physical thing. Living is meant literally.

He literally cannot live while Voldemort survives, and Voldemort cannot live while Harry survives, because of something else that happened on Halloween 1980. And that knowledge is going to be the most important information we get...

[Run Away!!!]

If you think that way... maybe you're right. I just don't look into things as complicated as you do. I think its as simple as it sounds.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Mmm... I suppose as with everything we'll have to wait and see how it turns out.

This topic was about the glint in Dumbledore's eyes or something originally wasn't it? Can't remember... But I remember JKR saying that that look was important in some way.

[.:.Lily.:.]

I get what PITA is saying but I think she is presenting it wrong.

Harry is alive, but he isn't living. He won't live until LV is dead.

Living involves as put by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence, we all have the right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Living at it's greatest definition. It includes the right to Life itself, because you can not live without being alive, Liberty, a right to be free and the liberties that are included amongst that (the American in me has to include liberties in "living") and, here's the key to my whole point here, THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

Harry only pursues happiness to an extent, and when he gets it, he pushes it back to put his fight against Voldemort first (i.e. Ginny) because he knows he can never truly be happy until Voldemort is dead. He can never truly live until that threat has been taken care of.

[Run Away!!!]

Thats what some of us have been saying for a while now