Triumph in DD's eyes

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

What sealed the prophecy was Voldemort 'marking him as an equal' when Harry was a baby. The irony is of course that he was marked as an equal physically, with the scar on his forehead.

I think we need to ponder those last few words of the prophecy again...

"Neither can live while the other survives."

Voldemort clearly doesn't do anything that resembles living. He is the one surviving.

But what I'm worried about is this: Voldemort is surviving. But Harry is also living. How can this possibly be true?

We know Voldemort survives, even if he doesnt live.

But if neither can live while the other survives...

Voldemort is surviving. How can Harry be living? He can't be.

There is something misleading about that prophecy that JK Rowling is throwing us off.

Neither Harry or Voldemort can live whilst the other one (be it Harry or Voldemort) survives?

IT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW... that's my issue.

I have another theory. I'll share it soon.

[Mistress Siana]

Oh please please share!

You made me think. We've had a lot of comments on how Voldemort is barly alive anyway, that he's not human enough to die etc. JKR said she chose her words carefully, I wonder to what extend? How does the prophecy define 'living'? Is there more to living than being alive? Do you think there's a difference between living and surviving, one that's relevant for the prophecy, I mean?

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Certainly I believe there's a difference between living and surviving, especially in terms of the HP series. First of all living in terms of the Harry Potter books I think will be defined as living with a complete soul.
If you haven't got a complete soul but you still stick around, you're not 100% living, therefore you can only be catagories as surviving.
Voldemort's sticking around, it seems.

The next question I ask myself is what happens to souls that are consumed by dementors.

And also, what truly are the dementors. Where do they come from? Does Voldemort want them on his side simply because of their dark nature and power, or does he want them on his side because it would be dangerous to not?

Why I ask these questions is if Harry Potter wants to get rid of the pieces of Voldemort's soul, it occurs to me that perhaps dementors could play a role of certain importance in the destruction o the Dark Lord.

There are a couple of problems:

a) They won't help Harry, 'coz there's nothing in it for then.
b) On further reflection, it's unlikely they're the deahtly hallows because of course, they don't cause death.

he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives

[AccioNiffler]

Perhaps voldemort using harry's blood sealed the prophesy by making them almost one person. this would indicate that they could not exist simultaniuosly.

I'm thinking that this is more likely what the prophecy meant. I took it to be that the blood now connected the two of them in a new and different level. With them being so connected now, through blood, I think that they will both die. I think that if Harry kills Voldemort, he will dies as well. And the same thing, if Voldemort kills Harry, he will die.

*sorry to revive an old thread, I hope no one minds*

[Simatra]

If so I don't think that DD eyes would be triumphed. And wouldn't we just kill Harry and save the world?

[Run Away!!!]

Yeah if that was true harry could ultimately just kill himself to save the world, and then there wouldn't have to be a big battle between him and LV, which we all know there will be.

[FawkesthePhoenix]

that is true, but maybe since it was harry's blood in the first place V has to be killed, and then when he is killed, harry dies as well, but not vice versa. that would insure that V dies, and that no one can continue the story.

[Simatra]

the only problem with the thoery with her killing Harry off so there's no more story, is that, well, since there are ghosts in these books who says that someone won't try to tell the story of:
Harry Potter the Teenage Ghost
?

[FawkesthePhoenix]

well, maybe J.K will drop a hint somewhere at the end that harry isn't afraid of death and he doesn't want to become a ghost.

[Run Away!!!]

True, but still somebody could want to carry on writing about the memory of Harry, through the other characters that are still alive. Like Ron or Hermione... and their children?

[Simatra]

Yes, so JKR if you never vist this web site know this,... DON'T KILL HARRY FOR THAT REASON!!!! ........

[sorcerer83]

i give jk too much credit to believe that she would kill harry just for that reason - she's too much of a true writer for that - if he has to die he will, if he has to live he will - it depends on where the plot goes.

but i want to return to the original subject :

The part in GOF when DD finds out LV used Harry's blood, and there's triumph in DD's eyes, well we can guess that that was a bad move for LV, but how so?

I'm trying to make a theory about this. Help me come up with one.

well generally i think this is reading too much into it - i think the triumph in dd eyes is because he now realized that he was right in some of his assumptions about the defence lily gave harry - it was a look of - yeah i knew i had it right - rather than of - oh great he used your blood thats very good...

but what it also can mean is the whole connection between their feelings - all of that occlumency business - and the harry feels what voldmort feels stuff.

"Neither can live while the other survives." Voldemort is surviving. But Harry is also living. How can this possibly be true?

We know Voldemort survives, even if he doesnt live.

But if neither can live while the other survives...

Voldemort is surviving. How can Harry be living? He can't be.

- there can be only two solutions to that equation - either harry too isnt living - not completely - not 100%

living with a complete soul

- maybe because he doesnt have love still? or wait a minute - maybe the other way around - yes it fits completely - he still doesnt have love - and therefore not entirely living with a complete soul - and therefore doesnt completely live because vol survives - remember he broke up with ginny "for some stupid, noble reason"; and he hadnt asked her sooner because he's "been busy saving the wizarding world" - he hadnt had, and still cant have, love - cant fully live - because vol still survives.

the other soloution is techincal and semantic so forget about it..

[Simatra]

Phoenix in the Ashes wrote:
"Neither can live while the other survives." Voldemort is surviving. But Harry is also living. How can this possibly be true?

We know Voldemort survives, even if he doesnt live.

But if neither can live while the other survives...

Voldemort is surviving. How can Harry be living? He can't be.
- there can be only two solutions to that equation - either harry too isnt living - not completely - not 100%

Not really, what I think it means is that they hate each other so much that one cannot live the perfect life, usless the other is dead.

[Run Away!!!]

What Simatra said is pretty much what I thought. But what people have said has made me think a little

Neither can live while the other survives."

The word neither means it must work both ways. Both of them are surviving (they are both here therefore they are both surviving). But it says neither "can live", which doesn't necessarilly mean that they are living 'right now' but they can't live 'again' until the other one is around.

Harry can't live a real normal life when LV survives because he feels that its his duty to destroy him. And with all the scar-hurting and wierd dream business, and everyone knowing him as the 'boy who lived'...his life is completely messed up while LV still survives.

For LV I think its more simple, for some reason he cannot become whole or alive again until Harry is destroyed.

[sorcerer83]

i think what run said is very true, its like what i said about harry not being able to live fully only because of more reasons.

i think that is the real beauty about the whole prophecy thing (and one of the nicest things in harry potter in general). since book 3 (i think) when we first hear of divination, we understand that its very controversial also in the wizarding world - because as with this whole world of harry potter - there are rules and the is logic, if slightly different than the one we're used to...
suddenly in book 5 there is a prophecy that everyone, including the most appriciated, and probably the wisest and most doubtful charachter in the book (dd) believes in... - suddenly prophecies are possible and legitimate!
now here lies the beauty of it all - this prophecy is true because everyone acts on it - vol going to kill harry - again and again, and harry realizing that he has to go after vol as well (which as dd explained to him he would have done without the prophecy just as well). as for vol i think it is also very simple and non-mysterious - his lifes devoyion is to make sure he cannot die - in his mind - in order to that he has to kill harry, and until he does he cant really live. this is the real reason that the prophecy is true and neither of them can really really live while the other (even) survives.