Snape's Motivation

[Person1]

Snape has been taking orders from DD, could all of his actions in the books be based on that?

Checking up on Quirrel in the 1st book, DD's idea?
Making the potion for Lupin, DD's orders?
Killing DD, DD's orders?

Snape doesn't seem the heroic type, so int he books, these could have been DD's orders.

Could he be good? Or was he only acting good all this time on DD's orders?

[Athena Appleton]

Snape has been taking orders from DD, could all of his actions in the books be based on that?

Checking up on Quirrel in the 1st book, DD's idea?

He did that on his own, I think. I doubt Dumbledore knew what was going on with Quirrell, so he didn't specifically tell Snape to do that. No one knew until after the fact that Voldemort had anything to do with it. Besides, at that point, Snape was probably not working as a spy (spying on bad guys, telling good guys), but as just another teacher.

Making the potion for Lupin, DD's orders?

Definately.

Killing DD, DD's orders?

I don't see how that's possible. It's not as though there was any kind of a "if things look like they're going to go this way, it's your job to kill me" kind of thing... this was pure murder. And what good would it do? This isn't LOTR where Gandalf comes back as the more powerful Gandalf the White, Dumbledore has stated quite clearly that he does not value immortality, so he wouldn't be coming back even more powerful. Why would he order Snape to kill him in the middle of war?

Snape doesn't seem the heroic type, so int he books, these could have been DD's orders.

I don't think courage or heroics has much to do with it. He protected the stone because he's a teacher at Hogwarts, and they were all doing that. He showed open resentment at having to make the potion for Lupin, more like a small child being forced by his mother to give a smelly old aunt a kiss. His main motivator for staying on Dumbledore's good side was the very opposite of heroic: he wanted to stay out of prison.

Could he be good? Or was he only acting good all this time on DD's orders?

The way you worded that last question confuses me... Yes he was only acting good on Dumbledore's orders, but you're not asking if Dumbledore knew he was still a DE and still ordered him to do the things he did, are you?

[Person1]

Killing DD, DD's orders?

I don't see how that's possible. It's not as though there was any kind of a "if things look like they're going to go this way, it's your job to kill me" kind of thing... this was pure murder. And what good would it do? This isn't LOTR where Gandalf comes back as the more powerful Gandalf the White, Dumbledore has stated quite clearly that he does not value immortality, so he wouldn't be coming back even more powerful. Why would he order Snape to kill him in the middle of war?

Yes, why indeed, could it be because DD wants there to be a spy in Voldemorts army? Thats how i see it, if you have someone that is in there, gathering information,(perhaps possibly even on horcruxes) it could be worth the sacrafice.

How would he have told him to do this?

Quote pg 595 The lighting struck tower.

Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was a revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
"Serverus...please..."

Now, if during that time, he had told him (mind reading) to kill him, and explained why, and thats a reason why there was a hatred in his face, hate of himself possibly, for having to do as DD told him?

[Athena Appleton]

I'm still skeptical. There's no way, really, anyone's gonna convince me this is actually Snape bein a good guy....

BUT I am rereading it, maybe I'm missing something.

That quote you put up does seem as if it could be read like that, but even if you're right, Snape didn't know all that when he swore (to his death) that he would kill Dumbledore if Draco couldn't.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Dumbledore told Snape to kill him. That's ridiculous, he wouldn't do that.
I think DD knew about the Unbreakable Vow, and what Draco had been sent to do. I do not, however, think he thought Draco capable of being able to get DD in a vulnerable position as he did. An old man's foolish mistake, and he knew as soon as he saw Snape that he would be killed one way or another.
He therefore did all he could to save Draco. I think he was pleading to save Draco, and for Snape to do anything it took.

[Froggs]

The thing is, if one were to believe the "Snape is bad" theory (as I do) then it changes the nature of DD and Snape's relationship (obviously- I know). My main point being the unbreakable vow, and the argument Hagrid overheard. If Snape is bad, then there is no reason to believe that he told DD about the unbeakable vow, he could have just told him the LV was forcing Draco to try and kill DD, to maintain his double agent role...give a few details, but not all sort of thing. As far as the argument goes, it could have been that Snape was trying to get out of reporting to DD, telling DD that he was tired of taking the risks or whatever, so that he could stop reporting to DD. I have a hard time picturing DD saying "Now, you promised to kill me and I'm going to hold you to it"...but that's a bit beside the point... What I have noticed in the various threads on the subject is that "Snape is good" believers want DD to have been informed of all of LV's objectives (through Snape) and are using these details as "proof" when in reality, we simply don't know the nature of DD's and Snape's relationship, it is mostly guess work. What I am trying to say is that the suppositions can go both ways, Snape is good, or Snape is bad...but the one thing we are pretty sure of is that Snape killed DD, which to me is all the proof needed to determine that Snape is bad. Wow, I have rambled on and on, I don't even know if I made a point or not!

[Athena Appleton]

I've been doing some thinking about the Unbreakable Vow.

As far as taking the Unbreakable Vow, I really think he could have gotton out of it by saying that Lord Voldemort had ordered Narcissa to speak of the plan to no one, and that without knowing for sure that Voldemort was okay with her request, he didn't feel as though he could make it. I mean, what would she be able to do? Go to Voldemort and say "I know Snape isn't faithful because he wouldn't vow to do Draco's job for him"? She'd be one dead witch for even having gone to Snape about it in the first place. And as far as Bellatrix is concerned, it sounds to me as though Voldemort would be more willing to listen to Snape's story of "What if I were to fail, too? Dumbledore would still be alive and you would have no spy" than Bellatrix complaining (even more) about her distrust of Snape. I don't think he was all that tricked into anything, since he could have sidestepped the whole issue using the same arguments he'd given earlier.

I just can't see how his taking the Unbreakable Vow, and then actually following through with it (as opposed to taking it to save himself and Dumbledore for a year, then sacrificing himself so the Order would not lose it's most powerful wizard) can possibly be spun in any way to show that Snape is a good guy.

[Froggs]

I agree, I thought that Snape had many good reasons that he could have used to not make the unbreakable vow.

[thestral]

that's my sticking point with the whole 'snape is good' theory, he did not have to make that vow. it could have been dodged and avoided so easily, he wouldn't agree to that just to spite/shock bella. that's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

if he had refused, all bella could've done is to complain more but that obviously hasn't had much of an affect so far. so snape had nothing to gain and everything to lose by taking the unbreakable vow. so i think it really was just him showing his true colours.

[Fantasy girl]

i agree i think snape is not good, in fact i don't think it is in him to be good. he could have avoided the vow so easily

[Tanuki]

Actually, reading the book; I wonder if Snape didn't do it for Draco, instead of anyone else

[Person1]

Could even be on DD orders, if he did tell Snape something through his mind, he could have told him to keep the Draco from becoming truly evil, DD would not want a student to know the feeling of killing someone. But then again, another theory will pop up in .....5...4...3...2....

[Tanuki]

If you read book five, you'd know that Occlumency and Legilimency are not telepathy or mind reading. Dumbledore can't issue orders that way.

[Person1]

Well, may not be telepathy, but if Snape looked into DD mind b4 he killed him, then well, thats how he may have learned what to do, if it wasn't an order given to him prior to this.

[Athena Appleton]

*stares glass-eyed*

isn't that what was already established can't happen?