A problem with the pensieve

[Dutchess42]

I have a problem with the pensieve - a problem concerning point of view.

When you have a memory of an event in which you were a participant, your memory does not include a view of yourself from the outside. But when you fall into the pensieve you are seeing a person's memory from an omniscient POV.

For example, Slughorn's memory shown to Harry included a view of Slughorn as though Harry were in the room with him instead of from Slughorn's POV.

Remember when Harry was in the snake? That's how the pensieve ought to work one would think - from inside the person whose memory it is.

[Athena Appleton]

The point of the pensieve seems to be to be able to view a memory outside your own point of view, for the purpose of remembering things objectively. I think this could only be done if you're seeing it from outside your point of view.

Follow-up question: If this is true, is anything outside of your point of view in the memory based on subconcious memories, similar to trying to bring back a memory using hypnosis?

I mean, I definately don't think it's a your-point-of-view kind of thing, unless possibly you're reviewing your own memory, but that would be pointless if I'm right about the retrieving part of it. *shrug* Probably doesn't matter. It's a novel. It's fiction. It doesn't have to make perfect sense. Rowling has definately stuck to one point of view for every pensieve memory: an outside, almost omniscent look.

[Athena Appleton]

This was in the July 16 interview with Rowling:

MA: One of our Leaky “Ask Jo” poll winners is theotherhermit, she's 50 and lives in a small town in the eastern US. I think this was addressed in the sixth book, but, “Do the memories stored in a Pensieve reflect reality or the views of the person they belong to?”

JKR: It’s reality. It’s important that I have got that across, because Slughorn gave Dumbledore this pathetic cut-and-paste memory. He didn't want to give the real thing, and he very obviously patched it up and cobbled it together. So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.


http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview3.html

[Dutchess42]

So, what you remember is accurate in the Pensieve.
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview3.html

But what you remember never includes a view of yourself sitting in a chair with a group of students around you as though you were someone else in the room. Slughorn's memory would be of the group of students around him. Not of himself.

[Athena Appleton]

I see what you mean, but the whole point of the Pensieve is to remember everything, not just what is in your very own memory. You must remember:

1. This is fiction. It doesn't have to make sense.
2. This is fiction about magic. The real magic of the Pensieve is that yes, it comes from your memory, but it enhances it.

[Pygmy Puff]

Memories preserved and viewed in the pen. include things that are outside the view of the person that the memory is from... you are able to see the whole room instead of just what the person is looking at (who the memory is from) ...or everything else would be foggy or something

this is also the case in the memory of T. Riddle's diary in the CoS- we see Tom catching Hagrid- etc. and is also not in the first person POV

or else we would not see nearly as much as we should have seen (as much as JKR wanted to reveal) and the memory would have been biased to some degree

[Dutchess42]

this is also the case in the memory of T. Riddle's diary in the CoS- we see Tom catching Hagrid- etc. and is also not in the first person POV

And that is EXACTLY why DD realized that the diary was not just a memory but a horcrux.

[Dutchess42]

1. This is fiction. It doesn't have to make sense.

No fiction writer that I've ever met would agree with that. And fantasy editors are especially strict on that issue (mystery editors are the worst, though with Romance editors the most lenient)

[Tanuki]

To write a story is to create a universe with laws. these laws have to be followed or else it just becomes surreal. In writing books, the laws of the universe are also the laws of storytelling. Things follow in a logical succession. Not and obvious one necessarily, but a logical one.

[Dutchess42]

Exactly so.

[Athena Appleton]

I'm not the greatest when it comes to thinking of the right words for what I'm meaning to say... lemme try again.

When I said it "doesn't have to make sense", I didn't mean that there aren't rules and laws. There are lots of them, and the books wouldn't be as good as they are without them. But there comes a time when you have to step back and say "hey, this isn't real. therefore, some things just have to be trusted or taken for granted." The purpose of the Pensieve, from a writer's standpoint, seems to be to explain background. Having it to where Harry is seeing background from a third person view, as opposed to a first person view, allows him to see more.

With the Harry Potter books, it's very difficult to draw that line and say "okay, Rowling says it's this way, so I can accept that" because she's SO thorough that it's even possible at times to forget that you are reading a work of fiction. But the fact is, none of this ever happened, and very very little of it [i]could/i] ever happen. So she says it's one way, and since it's her world, then we need to just accept that as a good enough answer. If you were writing them, we'd see a first-person view of the Pensieve, and that would be just as valid, I think. But it's her world, her characters, and the Pensieve is her invention. To act as though she's mistaken about how her own invention works makes... well, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Person1]

Also, Harry was able to follow his father down the hall, without snape there to witness.

All i can guess is that it has a radius??

Can see within 100ft of the viewer...

its magic, just gotta deal with it... adds plot...

[Dutchess42]

To act as though she's mistaken about how her own invention works makes... well, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

I am not acting like she's mistaken. I never said that at all. I am wondering about the pensieve. I was wondering the same sorts of things about the diary in CoS - about it's not acting much like a mere "memory" - and now that's been explained.

There are loads of little things one ignores as a sort of literary poetic license - like a world where bones can be regrown but people still have to wear glasses. Maybe the pensieve is one of them. But I like your notion that the magic of the pensieve is that it it able to sort of back out of the rememberer's POV and expand into the event. That would work.

[annachie]

It's called advanced plot contrivance, that which seems fantastical/unrealistic but you just have to accept that that's the way it is because the author says so.

That being said, it's not far removed from the re-enactments and 3-d simulation/re-enactments that get done these days and really, we don't know how much the brain stores in memory or how much our sub-consious(sp?) actually takes in.

[Athena Appleton]

To act as though she's mistaken about how her own invention works makes... well, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

I am not acting like she's mistaken. I never said that at all. I am wondering about the pensieve. I was wondering the same sorts of things about the diary in CoS - about it's not acting much like a mere "memory" - and now that's been explained.

There are loads of little things one ignores as a sort of literary poetic license - like a world where bones can be regrown but people still have to wear glasses. Maybe the pensieve is one of them. But I like your notion that the magic of the pensieve is that it it able to sort of back out of the rememberer's POV and expand into the event. That would work.

the glasses thing bugs me too. But even worse: bones can be regrown. Madam Pomfrey says that she can "mend bones in a minute" but there are some characters who have obviously had their noses break (I think it's mentioned that Krum looks like his nose has suffered multiple breaks). I just have to take myself firmly outside and say that this is fantasy, not science, and it doesn't always have to make 100% sense!