Snape's Motivation

[gadfly22]

Let's assume -- just for the sake of discussion -- that there are only 2 choices: Snape is good or Snape is bad.

Now, I think it's obvious that Snape is a major character in the books. He's not just an important teacher, but he has a history with Harry's family and friends.

If Snape is bad, what is his motivation? He's not a Lucius Malfoy (a relatively minor character), whose motives may be as simple as greed or the desire for political power or purity of the "race". What would make Snape so devoted to being bad? He's shown no signs of being greedy or power-hungry (teaching doesn't seem to lend itself to those pursuits even in the wizarding world).

So he's just bad by nature? Voldemort is a kindly replacement father figure? Hot chicks love the bad boys?

Obviously, I'm highly dubious of the "Snape is bad" scenario. I think we'll learn a lot more about his motivations for the highly dangerous double spy game he is playing, and those motivations will be a lot more complex and interesting than any one-dimensional explanation for his badness.

[Froggs]

Snape could be "bad" for many reasons but I think he entered Hogwarts with a chip on his shoulder already, he didn't have the best of childhoods, did he? So he is already moody and broody at age 11, and what does he find out? That the most popular, most beloved, and most "goodest" of the good guys is a show off bully. Yes, James grew up, and more than likely regretted his actions at age 15 (and who knows what he did to Snape at an even earlier ages) but like most people who are bullied, Snape never forgave or forgot. I think in POA we learn that Snape was always following the four friends, trying to find out what they were up to, maybe being sneaky, but maybe also trying to belong. Ask anyone who was picked on in school, they never, ever forget, and they sometimes don't forgive. Hey, if they did, most Talk Shows would be off the air.

[selene]

good point
bad childhood, getting picked at, i assume he didn't have friends either, knowing some dark spells before entering hogwaerts (mentioned in one of the books i think)
tough world to grow up in, easy to go bad

[gadfly22]

It may be "easy to go bad" because of a difficult childhood, but what does that mean?

In the Muggle world, it means the abused child ends up - often -- an abusing bully who lashes out at those weaker and at authority.

And, while Snape may abuse his authority in the classroom, there isn't much evidence that he was a bully as a student (he was disliked but mostly, I think, because he was a smug prig) nor is there evidence that he resists authority. In fact, he's very at home following the rules and obeying authority.

As I've said, I'm inclined to the "Snape is good" way of thinking, and I think his motivation for his actions will be either guilt (for the death of Lily) or gratitude to Dumbledore (as a kind of bond of loyalty and comradeship that will be a weapon against Voldemort) or both.

[Mistress Siana]

Hot chicks love the bad boys?

Exactly! Tehehe...

If he's indeed bad, I think his inability to forgive might be the key motivation. I think it's possible he might have really hated Dumbledore. Noble as it might have been of Dumbledore to offer him a second chance, I think in Snape's eyes, he never had a first. Gryffindor's golden boys got everything while he got nothing, he even must have felt that his life mattered nothing in comparison to their good name. I expect he never forgave Dumbledore for his own personal form of favouritism. He always kept his hatred well, nurtured it, waiting for a chance to make Dumbledore pay, even if it took half a lifetime. He might have killed Dumbledore with that very hatred.
On the other hand, there's Voldemort. After all we get to know in the HBP, I'm not surprised Voldemort favoured Snape, even though he is a half blood. Possibly even because of it. Voldemort must have seen very much of himself in young Snape, who despised and was ashamed of his Muggle father, who never had a friend, who loved the Dark Arts, not only the power they promised but their very beauty itself, who showed a talent for the human mind and manipulation, who loathed everything mediocre, and who I believe has also long passed the point at which he could love. Snape is very much like Voldemort, yet he lacks the decisive sparkle of insane brillliance that makes Voldemort the wizard he is and thus, Snape could never become a threat to the Dark Lord. Still he craved for recognition, for greatness, he gave himself the title of Half Blood Prince, he's been waiting for his moment for almost twenty years, like a spider in its web - mostly fitting, isn't it, that Snape lives at Spinner's End?
Now, all the whealthy pure bloods having failed, Snape had his one chance become greater than all of them, to be rewarded above imagination and most certainly become Voldemort's second in command, which - with Dumbledore gone - would make him one of the most powerful men of the country. Could Snape refuse? I don't think so.

[gadfly22]

Mistress Siana makes some very good points.

But, assuming that Snape is boiling with resentment at Dumbledore over all those years -- why wait for revenge?

Unless he was absolutely positive that Voldemort would return (which Snape did nothing in the previous books to help happen that I can recall), why stay on at Hogwarts under Dumbledore? Why not ally himself with the Malfoys or other Death Eater pals for better pay, more influence, more power? Why not try to bring Dumbledore down with those allies and get in tighter with the Fudge regime?

I suppose the response is that Snape was under deep cover on behalf of Voldy, but he was there at Hogwarts an awfully long time -- so long that it would have been hard to know if he was spinning his webs or spinning his wheels.

[Phinea Rogue]

But, assuming that Snape is boiling with resentment at Dumbledore over all those years -- why wait for revenge?

Because he didn't know whether Voldemort would return and at Hogwarts he was safe, Dumbledore vouched for him, he didn't have to go to Azkaban, he had a comfortable job and place where to live... Didn't he himself say that he thought Voldemort finished?

[gadfly22]

Didn't he himself say that he thought Voldemort finished?

Granted. But then, through at least Sorcerer's Stone and Chamber of Secrets, when the newly returned Voldemort was actively trying to kill Harry, why didn't Snape help out? Even in HBP, Snape could have taken Harry out, but used the old "Master wants to kill him personally" excuse.

And I don't have HBP in front of me at the moment, but did Dumbledore register shock or surprise when Snape threatened him on the Tower? I don't recall.

[Claire]

Hot chicks love the bad boys?

Exactly! Tehehe...

If he's indeed bad, I think his inability to forgive might be the key motivation. I think it's possible he might have really hated Dumbledore. Noble as it might have been of Dumbledore to offer him a second chance, I think in Snape's eyes, he never had a first. Gryffindor's golden boys got everything while he got nothing, he even must have felt that his life mattered nothing in comparison to their good name. I expect he never forgave Dumbledore for his own personal form of favouritism. He always kept his hatred well, nurtured it, waiting for a chance to make Dumbledore pay, even if it took half a lifetime. He might have killed Dumbledore with that very hatred.

Was Dumbledore headmaster during that time?

Also, DID he show favoritism? How do you know?

[Mistress Siana]

What I meant was the 'incident' when Snape was almost killed by Lupin. Snape certainly expected them to get expelled, but all that happened was that Sirius got detention and Snape was ordered to keep his mouth shut about what he'd seen. He might very well have hated DD for that decision, as he was headmaster at that time, feeling his life was worth a damn for him. And Snape's kept his grudge for James, Sirius and even Lupin,who was innocent, throughout his whole lifetime, so why forgive DD?

Btw, I hate that theory myself, so please tear it to pieces!

[gadfly22]

No question that Snape carried around a lot of hate and resentment toward James Potter and Lupin and Sirius, which he let loose on poor Harry.

But something must have happened between those school days and the present to account for Snape's actions. We know he carried part of the prophecy to Voldemort and initiated the sequence of events that led to the deaths of James and Lily.

We know also that Dumbledore knew that Snape was responsible and yet gave him a job at Hogwarts after that act and let him become Head of House and a member of the Order of the Phoenix.

Why?

I don't know, but the reason for Dumbledore's trust must have been extremely well-founded. Did he save Snape's life and put him under the kind of bond mentioned between Harry and Pettigrew? Did Snape confess his feelings for Lily? Did he feel guilt that his action caused multiple deaths?

We'll have to wait a couple of years to find out, but I suspect that Dumbledore -- trusting as he may be -- was a shrewd judge of character and did not misplace his trust in Snape.

[Un'Anima Persa]

Im leaning toward the "snape is good" but im still far from being on that side.snape had the chance to let DD die, when DD put that ring on. DD says tat if Snape hadn't acted so qui ckly then DD wouldnt have been living. why didnt snape just kill dd then? it wouldnt look suspicious. he couldve gone with the "he didnt get here in time" but then, it wouldnt look so great. wow, you let someone die....

could it be thet he WANTED to KILL dd, he didnt want LV to kill him. he wanted to do it, HIMSELF? he would definiitely look better that way, definitely look more powerful in the DE's and LV's eyes.

then again, he could still be good, acting on DD's orders, DD was so weak and beyond repair that he wanted tyo be dead, so he ordered it??

I am still with many doubts to either side, but i do thik that snape may have a bit of both in him.

[selene]

gadfly22, i never said snape is bad. just that it would be easy ...

hey maybe thats why he became a de in the firt place (don't shoot me, i'm just guessing out loud)
i'm still in doubts if hes good or evil, but i would really like to believe he's good

[gadfly22]

gadfly22, i never said snape is bad. just that it would be easy ...

I wasn't attacking the statement that, for Snape, it would have been easy to go bad or trying to put words in your mouth.

I just took that quote about it being "easy" -- which I think a lot of people agree with -- as a starting off point for a discussion of Snape's development.

It certainly would have been easy for Snape to be corrupted -- because he wanted revenge or at least the power to strike back. And Voldemort had that power. And Snape may well have been far along that course.

But I have to trust Dumbledore. He's been working on his plans for at least as long as Voldemort has been working on his own. That's why I trust his judgment and think that something happened to divert Snape from drawing close to Voldemort before he was lost.

[Froggs]

Well, we don't even know how "in" Snape was with LV before he apparently repented, or at least, pretended to repent. He may have been running to LV with the info on the prophecy in an attempt to get some glory, or he may have already been close to him. Did he become part of LV's inner cicrle before or after he made the report?