Confrontation on the Astronomy Tower

A place to discuss your Harry Potter theories. Are there hidden secrets and conspiracies? What will happen in future plots? The truth may be in here!

Moderators: Nightcrawler, Scarlet Lioness, FawkesthePhoenix, Lone_Buck, paintballdecoy

Did Snape do...

what was right in killing Dumbledore?
21
55%
what was easy in killing Dumbledore?
17
45%
 
Total votes : 38

Confrontation on the Astronomy Tower

Postby Ginny Potter » Sunday 17 July 2005 8:52:08pm

So...what *really* happened on the astronomy tower with Snape (the HBP), Harry, Draco, and Dumbledore? Did...

(1) Dumbledore want to die (due to dying throughout the book from old age) or felt at that point, he had to go, and Snape did this for him, thus sparing Snape and Draco from being killed and from Draco taking the same path as his father?

(2) Snape kill Dumbledore and reveal himself to absolutely be on the Dark Lord's side once and for all? Or to save himself (Snape) from death?

(3) Dumbledore plead with Snape because he didn't want Snape to go to Voldemort's side, or rather than having Snape heal him (remember, he wanted Snape, not Madam Pomfrey, to heal him upon his return), he (Dumbledore) wanted to put out of his misery and it worked with the circumstances?

What are your thoughts? Obviously, that was a pretty shocking part of the book. What did you think of that whole scene? :???:
User avatar
Ginny Potter
Fully Qualified Wizard
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Sunday 29 May 2005 6:26:43pm
Location: At Starbucks, whenever possible, reading and loading up on caffeine. :)

Postby Un'Anima Persa » Sunday 17 July 2005 8:58:52pm

maybe he wanted smape to kill him. It all does kind of seem to add up

1) DD (Dumbledore) asked for Snape, even though Harry insisted on the Hospital wing
2) I may be mistaken, but I dont think DD ever says "dont kill me" He just says something along the lines of "Please, Severus" He was alredy near death, and he may have asked Smape to kill him if something like this happened.
3) DD doenst seem at all upset about Draco taking his wand, in fact, he laughs while speaking to him.
4) DD tried to get Draco over to the good side, but why is Dumbleodre so keen to do so, after he has stormed the school with his "friends" Could it be that he wants someone there to help Harry, someone that knows a bit about how the DEs work on Harry's side when he has gone?
User avatar
Un'Anima Persa
Ravenclaw Prefect
 
Posts: 3326
Joined: Saturday 12 February 2005 10:50:19pm
Location: In mourning.

Postby Un'Anima Persa » Sunday 17 July 2005 10:08:50pm

Sorry for double posting, but upon rereading certain parts, i have come across more reasons.

5) If Snape wanted to kill DD, if he had not been ordered by DD to, he would not have saved him after he put on the ring, and was near death (page 503 for reference, last paragraph)
6) Somewhere, Harry saw DD and Snape talking by the forest, i am almost positive, and i believe that is what they were talking about, but this is a little sketchy, so i am trying to read into it more.
User avatar
Un'Anima Persa
Ravenclaw Prefect
 
Posts: 3326
Joined: Saturday 12 February 2005 10:50:19pm
Location: In mourning.

Postby Augusta Longbottom » Sunday 17 July 2005 10:23:43pm

I am just distraught that there is that distinct possibility that Snape really did go to the dark side and murdered DD. So I am desperate to believe that he and DD had a pact that if DD was in such a position, that Snape was to do this. I am hoping that when DD told Harry specifically to get Snape that this is what DD had expected of Snape. Perhaps I am clinging to false hopes.
User avatar
Augusta Longbottom
Fully Qualified Wizard
 
Posts: 417
Joined: Saturday 6 December 2003 6:10:14pm
Location: in Hufflepuff Common Room counting the days till the release of Deathly Hallows

Postby Ginny Potter » Sunday 17 July 2005 10:24:02pm

Interesting...Snape looked angry when he got to the tower...could this be because of what he knew he had to do, or do for Draco? Not just because of his unbreakable vow, but because Dumbledore had a prior discussion with him about it? JKR did talk about the choice between what is right and what is easy...for all we know, Snape may have been arguing with Dumbledore near the forest about how he'd rather die, and Dumbledore wouldn't let him do that. It almost seems too easy that Snape decided to be evil and wipe out a pleading Dumbledore who was begging for his life...more like, a Dumbledore that was begging for his death and a Snape that was angry about what he had to do.

And think on this...Snape has to know that although Voldemort may be thrilled with him, there's a whole wizarding world who will be after his (Snape's) head in the next book...how does that fit into Dumbledore's plan?
User avatar
Ginny Potter
Fully Qualified Wizard
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Sunday 29 May 2005 6:26:43pm
Location: At Starbucks, whenever possible, reading and loading up on caffeine. :)

Postby dibble2 » Monday 18 July 2005 1:12:04am

I don't think it's in Dumbledore's character to beg for his life. I also don't think we know the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape. Harry said he did, but there is a part when they are discussing it in Dumbledore's office where Harry askes him, and Dumbledore "looked as if he were making his mind up about something." (That's not a direct quote, the rest of my family is reading the book currently and I can't check it.) Anyway, I think it's plausible that he was deciding that he did not want to tell Harry the reason. Why not? Probably the same reason he didn't tell him that Snape had overheard the prophecy. It must be a very important and disturbing secret. I have an idea as to what it could possibly be, but I need to research it a little more.
dibble2
Fifth Year Student in Witchcraft and Wizardry
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Monday 18 July 2005 12:46:47am

Postby paintballdecoy » Monday 18 July 2005 1:31:06am

You would have thought Snape would celebrate after killing the one thing saving the wizarding world, but he was somber. Sure he tortured Harry, but he didn't kill him. Sure Voldemort wants to do that, but he (Voldemort) has bigger fish to fry than Harry.

Remembering their talk, Snape might have told DD about his Unbreakable Vow and Dumbledore told Snape he must kill him to save Draco from being a murderer.
User avatar
paintballdecoy
Chief Paintball Wizard, Theory Master and Voldemort Spy
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Saturday 28 February 2004 3:01:53am

Postby Un'Anima Persa » Monday 18 July 2005 3:16:01am

DorkWad547?! wrote:Sorry for double posting, but upon rereading certain parts, i have come across more reasons.


6) Somewhere, Harry saw DD and Snape talking by the forest, i am almost positive, and i believe that is what they were talking about, but this is a little sketchy, so i am trying to read into it more.


I would like to thank "The_turth_hurts" for tipping me off about this! :D
User avatar
Un'Anima Persa
Ravenclaw Prefect
 
Posts: 3326
Joined: Saturday 12 February 2005 10:50:19pm
Location: In mourning.

Postby Lelie » Monday 18 July 2005 3:19:48am

snape's behavior with harry after killing dumbledore also lends to the idea that he was still following dumbledore's orders. he never jinxes harry (i don't believe) only repels his spells. if dd knew what would happen... he would have reminded snape not to hurt harry who would never understand what he had done. if snape was truly a death eater acting on voldemort's orders, he would have at least stunned harry to get away, not just repel his spells.
User avatar
Lelie
Fully Qualified Wizard
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Monday 18 July 2005 2:21:10am
Location: baking goodies for the gryffindors

Postby Mistress Siana » Monday 18 July 2005 3:57:14am

Strangely, I've spent the past three years trying to convince people of the theory that Snape was in fact working for Voldemort, not for the Order. Now, having the 'proof' in form of Snape killing DD directly before me, I'm desperate to find a reason for it other than Snape being just rotten to the core, because, I admit, I really don't want him to be. And I do have a few points that bother me.

-The argument between Dumbledore and Snape that Hagrid has witnessed. Snape told Dumbledore he was taking too much for granted, and that he, Snape, didn't want to do it anymore. It also had to do with Slytherin. What was it? Keeping a closer eye on the son of a known but discredited Death Eater would hardly be too much to expect of a spy, and if Snape had planned to kill DD from the start, he would have been wise to keep his mouth shut. However, DD ordering Snape to kill him could pretty well cause such a reaction.

-Snape accepting to do the Unbreakable Vow was, in my opinion, beyond reason. He had nothing to gain, but very much to lose. His life, mainly, but also some of Voldemort's trust since the Vow was made behind his back. So...Snape, who's spent the past 16 years a double agent, always careful to save his own neck regardless of whom it might hurt, is supposed to risk his life so thoughtlessly, only to do Narcissa a favour? He wouldn't have needed to swear it to protect Draco, it was nothing but an insurrance for Narcissa. How Slytherin, or, how Snape is that? Not at all, if you ask me.

-So, Snape's apparently one of the highest ranking Death Eaters, being "the Dark Lord's favourite, his most trusted advisor", as Narcissa puts it. He must have seen and done things to get there. So, Mr-give-me-one-reason-Black-and-I-swear-I'll-do-it is supposed to break down and regret his oh-so-evil ways because an information he passed on to his master sent him after James Bloody Potter and his mudblood wife? I don't buy it for one second that DD honestly believed that. There must be something else.

-Why did Snape leave Harry on the Hogwarts grounds when he could very well have dragged him along for Voldemort to finish him off? Why did he spare Hermione, who's such a great help for Harry, as Snape himself stated in his conversation with Narcissa?

-What actually is the point of letting Snape teach DADA, now, after all those years, when Slughold seemed quite apt to do so as well? Especially as Dumbledore is well aware that DADA teachers at Hogwarts last only a year since Voldemort cursed the position. What did DD plan? (I wondered...DD kept repeating how absolutely he trusted Snape. Maybe the real question is not why, but what exactly it was that DD trusted Snape to do. Maybe he counted on Snape being some kind of ticking bomb that, brought in contact with his beloved Dark Arts, could be used for a special purpose)



Though those are certainly points that keep gnawing at me, and though I would more than anything like to believe that there is a redemptive pattern in Severus, I come to a different conclusion the more I think about it.

I think it's possible he might have really hated Dumbledore. Noble as it might have been of Dumbledore to offer him a second chance, I think in Snape's eyes, he never had a first. Gryffindor's golden boys got everything while he got nothing, he even must have felt that his life mattered nothing in comparison to their good name. I expect he never forgave Dumbledore for his own personal form of favouritism. He always kept his hatred well, nurtured it, waiting for a chance to make Dumbledore pay, even if it took half a lifetime. He might have killed Dumbledore with that very hatred.
On the other hand, there's Voldemort. After all we get to know in the HBP, I'm not surprised Voldemort favoured Snape, even though he is a half blood. Possibly even because of it. Voldemort must have seen very much of himself in young Snape, who despised and was ashamed of his Muggle father, who never had a friend, who loved the Dark Arts, not only the power they promised but their very beauty itself, who showed a talent for the human mind and manipulation, who loathed everything mediocre, and who I believe has also long passed the point at which he could love. Snape is very much like Voldemort, yet he lacks the decisive sparkle of insane brillliance that makes Voldemort the wizard he is and thus, Snape could never become a threat to the Dark Lord. Still he craved for recognition, for greatness, he gave himself the title of Half Blood Prince, he's been waiting for his moment for almost twenty years, like a spider in its web - mostly fitting, isn't it, that Snape lives at Spinner's End?
Now, all the whealthy pure bloods having failed, Snape had his one chance become greater than all of them, to be rewarded above imagination and most certainly become Voldemort's second in command, which - with Dumbledore gone - would make him one of the most powerful men of the country. Could Snape refuse? I don't think so.
User avatar
Mistress Siana
Slytherin Chaser and Devil's advocate
 
Posts: 1862
Joined: Thursday 12 December 2002 5:40:13pm
Location: Palace of Tears

Postby werebane » Monday 18 July 2005 4:48:43am

well im not sure i agree wholely with anything, but i agree mostly ith 3. DD didnt want to believe that he had been wrong about snape the whole time. he was pleading for it all just to be a mistake
User avatar
werebane
Fully Qualified Wizard
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Tuesday 9 July 2002 1:00:00am
Location: Azkaban

Dumbledore

Postby Poseidon_IX » Monday 18 July 2005 5:54:36am

Hi, i just joined these forums today after reading The Half-Blood Prince over the weekend. I am probably at ends with a lot of people for saying this, but i believe it is possible that Dumbledore is not fully dead. With all the mention of Horacruxes (sp?), it may be possible that Dumbledore found an alternative way for partial immortality. Just a thought, it would be a great twist to find out Dumbledore was alive in the 7th book. The numerous mention of the Phoenix was one of the reasons why I think this.

I do firmly belive however, that Snape is 'good', and was planning the events to an extent with Dumbledore all along. It just seems too obvious that Snape is the bad guy Harry thinks him to be, especially when it was apparently revealed in the early chapters of the book. J.K. Rowling likes to surprise us, and having him as the bad guy all along seems too uniform.

After what everyone has been saying on the discussion forums, the general feeling is that Snape is 'good'. Alot of interesting theories.
User avatar
Poseidon_IX
Muggle
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Monday 18 July 2005 5:21:41am

Postby Herminny » Monday 18 July 2005 6:22:57am

I don't think dying was such a big deal for DD, remember philosophers stone something like "Death is the next great adventure" I think he lived for harry, but now in a way harry is beyond protection he said as leaving the cave something like i feel protected by you or somthing along those lines.

There is no way DD has a horcrux, you have to not only kill someone but be interested in immortality (i think) which i doubt DD is/was.

As for snape.... There was no alternative, i would tend to believe that DD is more easily blinded than DD in terms of trusting people. But i really don't want him to be the evil, cunning little boy i have grown to loath over the years. Killing DD, would prove his aleigence sp? but he also no longer has an excuse not to kill muggles and all that now. It doesn't matter if he is seen by DD or the Order.

If JK makes it so that snape was and is faithful to DD side, she has that whole romantic feeling of anyone can change and all that, it is sort of maybe doubtful though
User avatar
Herminny
Fourth Year
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Saturday 17 January 2004 1:59:51am
Location: Queensland, Australia

Postby tiggirl » Monday 18 July 2005 9:17:38am

AHHH! As much as I love to dislike Snape, I have to admit that I don't believe he betrayed Dumbldor in the end. I think Dumbledor, being as weak as he was, saw that the best course of action was to get Snape to kill him. Otherwise the other Death Eaters would have done it any way and Snape would have betrayed his loyalties, and so been killed along with Draco. It would have been a waste of too many lives. Besides if Snape was really with the DE's then why didn't he attack Harry. Even if he was ordered not to kill him out right he could have made Harry suffer. Instead he blocked all of Harry's attempts to curse him, without trying to retaliate. And also, helped Harry when he was cursed by the other DE.
User avatar
tiggirl
Fully Qualified Wizard
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Wednesday 23 April 2003 10:01:32pm
Location: Hanging out in the Gryffindor common room

Postby darkcloak » Monday 18 July 2005 11:16:22am

Good discussion.

It all seems to come down to whether you trust Dumbledore's judgement. In previous books he has been omnipotent, walking in and out of danger with the same calm and knowing style.

However, I think it's really interesting how we start to see behind that in the HBP. The ring that damages his hand, the poisoning of him, the unforseen vanishing cabinet, the spell on Madame Rosmerta and him leaning on Harry for help. Even at the end of OotP he admits to Harry that age has made him blind to certain things. Therefore do we still trust his judgement of Snape?

In terms of Snape's 'secret' that caused him to turn his back on his whole way of life (leaving the DE etc.), anyone else find it interesting that Lily Evans was extermely talented at Potions? As many on this forum have already speculated, maybe she had an admirer, her 'equal' in class?
User avatar
darkcloak
Fully Qualified Wizard
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Wednesday 27 August 2003 1:20:04pm
Location: with master

Next

Return to Theories

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron