SPEW

[Tanuki]

The idea is simple, freedom is an illusion....On your death beds, you will not consider if you were free or not, but on what kind of life you lived. If you live a good life with lots of good experiences, freedom is a subnote.

You have a very indulgent view on slavery, but a harsh one on freedom.

How do you measure the experiences of life? Having luck? Being happy? Winning the lottery? You know, that none of these are lasting or make you a better person.

Illusion? Taking over responsibility, caring for yourself and others are keys to break through the strong illusions of our daily life. Being a happy slave is resignation.

You'll have to forgive me, I'm at a transitory period between school and the working world. The idea of this sort of change is not a pleasant one for me. I've also become rather cynical in my old age. So I've learned not to trust what the world tells me.

I like the concept of communism, but find the application horribly flawed

I measure the experiences of life by the memories they leave us with and the things we leave behind to be remembered by. I have relatives who live as freely as they like, but my uncle will not be remembered in a positive light and the only lwgacy he leaves behind is a son with a very sad life and a sour connection by my family to a heroine addict with aids. on the other hand, my aunt is retarded, yet she is beloved, and despite many things loves others. She has seen things and people, she has almost been married, and despite how bad she gets, my family will never think of her negatively. Neither has long to live theoretically, but One has lived a better life

As for the western movie buff, if the world were like it is in the movies, a lot of people would be very miserable for a very long time, waiting for one man to save them; not a very good way to live.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

You all may as well change the title of this darn topis to:
"Reverting Back to the Harshness of the Middle Ages. Good/Bad?
Maybe a poll might fit...
Seriously people no matter how much fun people might have being slaves, that's all they are. And I've realised something.
There is nothing wrong with having slaves at all. It's their owners that are the problem. The Hogwarts elves don't have problems with being slaves, because they are treated with a little respect by DD. The problems with slaves start when they are starting to be mistreated. Which slaves will always be if they are servants to humans. It's just human nature. If someone is inferior to you, is born inferior to you, and admits they are inferior to you, then you feel superior to them, and will treat them like dirt. No matter how many nice people there are, there are always some completey insane mental cruel people, who will take advantage of there power. People should be treated with equal respect, so should animals, and any living thing. Down with slaves!
Communism, or at least the idea of everyone being equal, just doesn't work. Because people don't want to be equal, they want to make there mark on the world, be famous and all that. And when they don't want to be equal, if they live in a society of Communists they get treated badly, some killed. So really, Communists don't want everybody to be equal. They want everybody to be equal except the people in power, them.
It's twisted. Let everyone be free.
Communism shouldn't be everyone being equal.
It should be everyone being treated with equal respect.

[Hagger 9003]

thats very true, phoenix. thats why people have started stamping out all slavery, because other people started treating slaves very badly.

communism is a nice idea. treating each other equally, supporting each other when it goes bad, using your talents for good. however, humans have ambition. some people want to do better than others, and they dont fit in a communist society. then, those people who are ambitious scare the people in power, who often end up a bit power-crazed. the rulers dont want people to leave communism, so they start getting a bit heavy-handed against usurpers. basically, if you have communism, it wont work. its against human nature.

but, siana, rights basically end up with making people happy. thats the point of rights, giving people happy lives. if it isnt, then what do rights exist to do? give lawyers somthing to fight over? thats what i mean by happiness. if you make people happy, and are happy yourself, you have had a good life.

[Tanuki]

You have to wonder if the dissenters even read my posts. I already said that I find the application of communism horribly flawed

I also find your innate need to judge humanity as completely corruptable rather disheartening. Of course people are corruptable, and they will take advantage of power at times, but this does not stop us from letting people govern us or stop us from going to the doctor where they can very easily poison or kil us without any regard to our feelings. People all over the world and in our community have power over us and we trust them implicitly. Yes, of course people are easy to corrupt when they have power, but it is the responsability of the people to stop them, to preserve right and justice.

When a person mistreats someone in a lower status, it is not the problem of the system, but a problem of the individual. The neede course is not necessarily to destroy the system, but to change the person, because it is their flawed mind that is causing undue suffering. The main problem with S.P.E.W. is that people want to change the mind of the elves, but have yet to figure out that they need to change the wizard perspective to leave any lasting change.

In the U.S.A., we have the most imfamous history of slavery in the world I think. They freed the slaves in the early to mid 19th century, yet their still exists an inequality among the people. Why, because no one has bothered to make a complete effort to change the opinion of the people. Laws wont make a person ignore race or social status, that requires a change in society

If all reality is an illusion, the only way a certain person can have any identity or even exist is if all parties involved have the same percieved reality of this person. When you can do this with the wizarding world, then all this change you speak of might actually work

[Hagger 9003]

ok, tanuki, but the problem is, how do you change peoples opinions? it has been tried for thousands of years. the church tries all the time. opinions are a big force in deciding what happens today. lots of people dont like communism, so that even tho it had good and noble ideas to start with, those corrupt people have ruined the worlds chances of ever really having a proper communist nation.

i dont believe all of humanity is corruptible. its just that in some situations, people are very easily corrupted. often people are blackmailed, and nothing can be done about that.

being english, i kno that we started the slave trade. for hundreds of years, english people made a lethal trade triangle, taking cheap brandy and mirrors to exchange with african chieftans for slaves, then taking the slaves off and selling them in america for a greatly raised price. without us, the slaves wouldnt have come to america in the first place. england started it. people would condem a person to life on a plantation for the profit they could make out of it. that sounds pretty corruptible to me.

anyway, the house elves might want to become free if they are educated, but as they are, i dont think they want to. they prefer their current existence too much. however, their attitude may change. who knows?

[Tanuki]

The whole point of anything is that you are trying to change the wrong people to invoke change. A violent revolution doesn't do anything good to change the world, since it has not changed the nature of man; work towards the harder goal of changing man and the rest will follow suit. If you are too impatient, even if the elves fight and win, they will not be able to attain true freedom, since they will be bound with bitter feelings by the wizards

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Right, so you in think in a hundred years if we try really hard there'll be no more bad people? I doubt it. Some people are just simply twisted. No matter how much you blame stuff on bad parenting etc. (which does count a bit) there is also that fact that people have different personalities and they will always clash. So unless every single person in the world thinks exactly the same thoughts and acts in exactly the same way, people will always be seen as "outcasts", and when people are seen as outcasts, that's when things turn nasty.
Now doesn't this "Every single person in the world thinks exactly the same thoughts and acts in exactly the same way" sound familiar. Communism doesnt work, and that's the principle behind it. So what that means is that bad people will exist until the word turns communist. Which we know won't work, because... oh i'm not getting into that again lol.
So basically bad people will always exist, and there's nothing we can do about it. We can try to make the world a better place, but as long as slaves exist, people will think they are superior. It's already happening with animals that are being killed to sell skins, and chopping down the world's environment. So apparently it doesn't matter what we hurt. Survival of the fittest eh

[Tanuki]

I doubt it. Some people are just simply twisted. No matter how much you blame stuff on bad parenting etc. (which does count a bit) there is also that fact that people have different personalities and they will always clash. So unless every single person in the world thinks exactly the same thoughts and acts in exactly the same way, people will always be seen as "outcasts", and when people are seen as outcasts, that's when things turn nasty.

And I thought I was cynical. I'm sorry, but I believe that humans have the capacity for change, mayhaps even in one generation, its just that over whelming attitude that leaves things unchanged.

As far as bad people always existing; does it not make sense then that it is the responsability of good people to keep them from hurting others. This requires more than a passing interest in your neighbors. It is hard, but doable. The problem is that no one wants to support an unpopular opinion, and the unpopular opinion is alwasy the one that is not permissive to evil, despite what people say

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

I really don't think I need to explain myself on this matter any longer. This topic has changed so rapidly, and i have offered all I can say. If you believe that someday no bad people will exist, that's fine for you, but in my opinion it's impossible for such a thing to happen. There are some strong-willed people out therek, and I think you're one of them. I can see you making quite a difference if you put your mind to it, but to change the world in one generation is a big ask for people.
Back on the topic, SPEW obviously will play an important role in the next few books, and I tihnk we should leave it at that

[Tanuki]

Frustration, the ugliest of emotions --__--0

[carsten]

Off topic
To all folks who are participating in this discussion: A sincere thank you! This is one of the best discussions I had for quite some time. We went to the heart of the matter (slavery, good vs. evil) and stood firm with our good reasons against (at first glance) contradicting views. This is an excellent example how good people can have different opinions on some serious topics. And it is a pleasure to exchange my views with you. So again: thank you!

Back on track
When I am thinking it over, pondering the reasons and good cases for each side, I get the feeling, that there might be a patch of common ground. We have different concepts about slavery and therefore different interpretations about its moral value. We have different measures for happiness and therefore different results on our scales. But somehow these positions are not THAT far apart. We could find a few statements to agree upon, couldn't we?

Becoming specific
I would not be surprised, if the whole story, spanning all seven books, would be about freeing the elves. Harry might become a kind of saviour for them and Dobby a revolution leader.

[Hagger 9003]

thanks carsten!!

i agree with ur point. freedom from slavery will be a major theme. wizards have been imprisoning creatures for centuries, and they will pay hte punishment for their arrogance and stupidity.

however, there will be a big thing about freeing house elves. most of them wont want to be freed, and most people dont want to free them. and are they right? it really is only down to your opinion. just dont let your opinion be affected by other people too much. after all, its you opinion, not the opinion of hte government.

[Tanuki]

And I still don't think it will be the elves who do this, seeing as I don't think they CAN be KEPT as slaves...they are mighty powerful creatures.

Centaurs are looked down upon by some wizards like Umbridge, but they are not discriminated against or enslaved. In fact, I think they look down on us more often than not. Though it would be nice to see them get the respect they are due

Goblins... they got their freedom, and I wouldn't ever cross them

[carsten]

And I still don't think it will be the elves who do this, seeing as I don't think they CAN be KEPT as slaves...they are mighty powerful creatures.

YES! But do they unleash their power, if their masters, e.g. the Malfoys, do bad bad things? Up to now: NO.

Having power doesn't free you from slavery. Most slaves from Africa were much stronger than their masters. But it took some time and leaders like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and others to inspire the masses with the idea of freedom.

[Tanuki]

That's also assuming the wizards subjugated them in the first place. That's my point. The goblins probably didn't have much magic to begin with but found a way to fight wizards. Elves seem to have it naturally, so how did the wizards subjugate them in the first place?

Also, I doubt any elf would ever follow Dobby. They don't respect him, and they don't listen to him