Which girl would you like to see Harry be with?

[Just Mom]

Sorry for my double post but I didn't see Tanuki's double post until...oh well, never-mind.

Relationships are very complicated and have to be viewed much more than simply two-dimensionally. (i.e. healthy or unhealthy/argumentative/peaceful.) I've had a lot of relationships, including friends, family, lots of long-term romances, and a marriage that has lasted twelve years. The marriage, more than any other, has proven to me -lots of therapy has helped- that there just aren't any "ready-made" relationships. Whatever you think you have, you generally have to create. That's why no relationship is hopeless and no relationship is "perfect" from the get-go. People change all the time. When you (Tanuki) do finally get your feet wet with folks other than squabbling siblings and observing others from afar, you'll know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry that so far, what you've observed, isn't very positive. It's out there, the positive, even in some rough packages, but most people's relationships are like the war in Iraq. You only get a snap-shot and a sound bite which is impossible to judge really. Some folks have a bad day and a stupid fight, but that doesn't mean their entire relationship can be defined by that moment. Other couples, appear to be very peaceful and friendly and then you find out there's a LOT they never talked about because it was too uncomfortable. I know loads of couples like that, and all heck breaks loose sooner or later because there's so much they've never dealt with. Those are the ones that surprise you when they divorce. ("they always seemed like the perfect couple...I never heard them fight.") Marriage counselors know better. They'd much rather see a couple learning to fight and work through their conflict than sweep it all under the rug. And there are no ESP couples... Not for long anyway.

In culinary school, do you ever make things that have unlikely ingredients but amazingly, when heat or cold is applied, come together and make something new? I was thinking there were some laws of chemistry/physics that work there. The same is very true in relationships of all kinds.

I really appreciated your candor, Tanuki.

[Mistress Siana]

The way I see Hermione, she will grow into a strong young woman, and I think the problem at that age is that girls turn into women before boys turn into men. My experience (which is not meant as an offense) is that boys of that age simply cannot cope with someone who is not really a girl anymore, and that in most cases, they don't want to. It's really difficult to express. I don't know how the different characters will develope in the course of the war, but the way I see it now, Ron will not be mature enough for Hermione, I think Harry is more likely to mentally grow with the burden that is placed upon him. But...

I think the step from close friends to lovers is far more complicated than people think. My best friend and I have so very much in common, we are also on a level were you don't need words for communication, and our friends, our parents even keep telling us what a wonderful couple we'd make. But I know that won't happen. The problem is that once such a step is made, you cannot go back, and the better and the more special a friendship is, the less are you likely to risk it. You just know that at such a young age a relationship is not likely to last for life, especially if it is your first go on a relationship. If it's your best friend, you don't "give it a try", you have to be 100 per cent sure to take that step, and 100 per cent sure is something you almost never are, especially not if you are a teenager.

Another problem with best friends becoming couples is that, in most of the cases, the period of being "thoughtlessly in love" is missing. You know, no butterflies in your stomach and stuff. But this kind of feelings are important if you are just about to discover sexuality, it might become less significant if you...well, have made your experiences.

So, in my opinion, teenager relationships are more likely to result of tension, whereas true love possibly(!) isn't. Somehow, I see Harry and Hermione as a kind of couple that was best friends at school, met again at the age of 30 and fell in love. The guy for now is Ron, but I can't image a lifelong marriage for him and Hermione.

My resumé of the teenager time, as mine is ending in a month.

[Tanuki]

Relationships are very complicated and have to be viewed much more than simply two-dimensionally. (i.e. healthy or unhealthy/argumentative/peaceful.)

that there just aren't any "ready-made" relationships. Whatever you think you have, you generally have to create. That's why no relationship is hopeless and no relationship is "perfect" from the get-go. People change all the time. When you (Tanuki) do finally get your feet wet with folks other than squabbling siblings and observing others from afar, you'll know what I'm talking about.

They'd much rather see a couple learning to fight and work through their conflict than sweep it all under the rug. And there are no ESP couples... Not for long anyway.

I was thinking there were some laws of chemistry/physics that work there. The same is very true in relationships of all kinds.

I really appreciated your candor, Tanuki.

Salt, its made from Sodium and Chlorine, both are poisons.

I only know unhealthy and healthy relationships --__--0. My old freidns were in very bad relationships (whoring, lying, abusing) and most of my relatives are in bad relationships (Two divorce, one alcoholic, one domineering ass). Aside from my parents, who only seem to fight about money and my father's habit of being light on punishment, I have very little to look to for a healthy relationship that argues. I do see them, but I have never seen a healthy relationship that fought as often or as ardently as those two, how is my opinion SUPPOSED to be formed. Also, who says I've had to watch from afar, my friends have dumped me right in the middle of their problems, coming to me for advice; this is probably why I stopped talking to them after a while.

Of course a relationship isn't ready made; however, if there is a couple that are already fond of each other, already knows each other well, find each other attractive, and can communicate well, would you pick this over a couple that needs as much work as Ron and Hermione. Initial attraction is nice; but you should be understand each other to continue as a couple. Hermy and Harry are working very quickly for a strong ability to communicate, despite his personal sense of isolation.

As far as Hermy and Harry's conflict, they've had them. Harry's been royally p***d at Hermy and she's told him off about things he's done for years, but the difference between these arguments and the other couples arguments is that Harry and Hermy resolve them quickly for the most part, and in fact do pay attention to what the other is saying. For the most part, Ron ignores Hermy's advice and continues to do what he wants, and Hermy doesn't count his opinion as a whole lot it seems. When Harry puts her in her place, and vise-verca (I chose this order because its so rare to see anyone correct Hermy, and I especailly remember the scene in OotP where she wishes she could see Thestrals and Harry asks her is she really wishes that) that there is actual growth going on

As far as ESP couples, haven't you ever seen a couple finish each other's sentances? I have, they know each other so well, they can put themselves in the others head. Harry and Hermy ain't there yet, but they can exchange a common idea with just a look. That's getting pretty dang close. She can discern his mood before other's too

Oh yeah, I'd rather see a couple resolve arguments civilly before fighting. Feelings are hurt less this way. If you can have a fight without getting you or your partner upset, then you've come a long way as a person. I probably never could. I'm very proud, supposedly, and my feelings are hurt very easily. I tend to lash out and strike at just the right nerves. It's a gift

[Just Mom]

Oh yeah, I'd rather see a couple resolve arguments civilly before fighting. Feelings are hurt less this way. If you can have a fight without getting you or your partner upset, then you've come a long way as a person. I probably never could. I'm very proud, supposedly, and my feelings are hurt very easily. I tend to lash out and strike at just the right nerves. It's a gift

You're kidding. I'd never would have guessed this! You can be our token-angry-Heathcliff on the forum. Thestral will love you if she ever shows back up.

Fighting without hurting each other's feelings, is possible, with practice and time and respect and good communication skills. It's also a Walgreen's commercial where the world is perfect. It depends on what you're arguing about. Sometimes those stakes get pretty darn high and not hurting each other becomes impossible especially when you deal with old wounds that everyone has. But there's life after the hurt. A whole bunch of it, actually. And that's where relationships really become rich and full. You stop pressing buttons just because you can, and you start protecting weaknesses because you should. You learn that what one has, the other doesn't have and you go through a phase of deep appreciation where you finally become, oh, I don't know how to describe it, synchronized or something. That's when you finish each other's sentences. That's when you know what someone else is thinking.

Mistress Siana's post about the jump from friends to lovers is excellent and so true because if you don't like what you get when the change comes, the whole relationship is blown. Most attraction, is a great mystery, a mixture of magic, culture, personality, physical-type and mother/father memory stuff both for good and ill. But try as I might, I really don't pick up a lot of this mysterious "chemistry" between Harry and Hermione even though, as Tanuki pointed out, they have a good, rich, friendship and would make a nice couple. The chemistry though, appears to be betweem Ron and Hermione. It's the emotional immaturity they have to overcome. Right now Hermione is a little ahead of Ron. I predict in the next two books, Ron will, through a series of events,"wake up" and become the person he's destined to be, and Hermione will see him, with new eyes. I see that same thing with Harry and Ginny Weasley as he begins to see her (I think OotP gave a little clue that indicates he's already starting to see her a little bit like this) with new eyes as well. I was reflecting a little last night from the earlier books and it seems that Ron is the first to criticize Hermione, and then the first to defend her. That same seems to hold true with Hermione.

Another famous fiction couple who fought all the time as teens, but loved each other later: Anne of Green Gables and Gilbert Blythe.(sp)

[Tanuki]

So, you're saying it's impossible to have a conversation without squabbling or offending your partner, is that it?

Old wounds happen, but if you have a level of consideration, you know enough not to touch on them simply because it wont do anyone any good. A person can have an argument and still come out of it okay. You don't need to have a throw down, knock down, dirty fight with insinuation and insult thrown around to have a full relationship. I never understood why people felt this need to lump a disagreement with so many emotions.

I took law in high school and I learned that putting emotions into an argument is opinion suicide because the emotion takes away from teh logic you're trying to convey

I don't see the chemistry you place between Ron and Hermione, where you see passion I just see tempers flaring. There is no chemistry to me, there is just a pair of immature kids who don't know how to speak to each other; an insensative, oblivious boy, and a know it all girl

Ron IS the person he's destined to be. If he hasn't changed over the past five books, when everyone else has, what makes you think he'll change now? Of the three, he's the only one who still can't say Voldermort's name. He's being left in the dust unfortunately

I'm currently in book three; I see Ron critisize Hermione loads, but not a whole lot of defending. In book one, he flat out hated her up till the troll, and it seemed to be Harry who was nicer to her.

Never read Ann of Green Gables; how well did she know this guy before coming to love him? That's a trend I notice a lot in these couples who fight, they fight and fight and fight but don't get to know each other. Then one day, they learn more and more about each other and fall in love. Ron and Hermione have known each other intimately for five years, but still fight like cat's and dogs. When are they going to notice anything different. In the fourth book, they don't even remember that Hermy's a girl, and in the fifth book, it's HARRY who admits that he doesn't think she's unattractive. At the Yule ball, it's Harry who notices how beautiful she is first when he recognizes her. Ron just sulks. In the fifth book, Harry's the only one with a girlfriend, yet Ron is joining him in complaining about women.

[Just Mom]

So, you're saying it's impossible to have a conversation without squabbling or offending your partner, is that it?

Old wounds happen, but if you have a level of consideration, you know enough not to touch on them simply because it wont do anyone any good.

No one said "it's impossible to have a conversation...without fighting," etc., so that's pretty far over the top.

What is true, is that in deep, committed relationships, people hurt each other, sometimes terribly. You can read books, you can theorize while you're in that situation, but until you're sitting across from someone you love very much who's just really torn you apart and you have to pick up and go from there, you probably just can't grasp what I'm saying. Arguments don't take place in a vacuum. Sometimes they just erupt. Nobody's on their best behavior every second of their lives, not even with folks they really care for. Relationships, the best of them even, sometimes become like a pair of work-pants that take a lot of abuse. But the thing is, that's not all there is, and that's not permanent. That's what people know who are happily married or committed, for more than a year or two. That's the secret they figure out. You love, you're loved, you hurt, you get hurt, you forgive, you're forgiven, you move forward and so it goes. That's real life.

I think what folks see who are pretty sure the Ron/Hermione pairing is going to happen because it appears to be in the process of happening, is that all this fussing that's going on right now between them, is not as serious/destructive/indicative of unhealthy dynamics as you perceive to be and you're seeing it through your own "life-filter" (forgive the enormous amount of therapy I've had over the years) which says that "arguing" is bad, destructive, you don't want to be around it, avoid it at all costs, etc. Others though, see this teenage stuff, as harmless and quite predictable, especially those of us who wound up falling in love with someone we initially couldn't stand and couldn't along with and seemed all the way around, a most unlikely pairing. Yes, I'm one of those, happily married to my polar opposite, so I see it through my "life filter." It took us a long time to stop trying to fix/change the other, but when we finally did, the clouds parted, the sun came out, and every other mushy thing you can think of...

Anne of Green Gables (oh God don't forget the "e") met Gilbert Blythe when she was around 12. The first day they met he pulled her flaming red pigtails (and she's as read as any Weasley) and called her, "Carrots." She turned around and broke a slate over his head. They fought for the next five years, constantly in competition with each other, constantly back-biting and jealous, and then suddenly, right around college time, they both grew up. Very sentimental girls love that story. (and the PBS series.)

[Tanuki]

Isn't using a phrase like "tore you apart and you have to move on" kind of extreme too?

Okay, we've covered the nature of a relationship; but are you still telling me that you would choose the couple who fight consistently and badly over the couple who do fight, but get over it as you say? You tell me that their fights aren't as bad as you say, and I can't fathom that we're reading the same books. As far as I can tell, they spend more time NOT talking than actually talking

(Forget therapy, crazy works for me and my family. If none of us were crazy, and I do mean really honestly crazy, then none of us would understand each other.)

You married your polar opposite; that's cute (not sarcastic). My parent's are polar opposites too. In my case , I've seen a lot of these kinds of relationships... but Ron and Hermy aren't just polar opposites. The boy is dense and insensative. He's not a bad person, but he has no clue how to deal with other people.

We also have to different types of favorite reading for pairings. You see the story of the person the girl fights with and builds passion with and then fall in love with and swoons (girl's like this in general is seems). I prefer the story of the best friend suddenly realizing the girl he's gone to for comfort and advice and the one he's done everything with is the one for him. Why do I like this one, because they know each other, because they already get alone with each other, because the person you love should be your best friend. If your friend is drop dead gorgeous, that helps. It's also usually a story of the underdog getting his in the end, which is an important illusion for us guys with low self esteen to maintain, it keeps us from settling for whatever will take us as quickly as we would normally.

[Just Mom]

[quote="Tanuki"]Isn't using a phrase like "tore you apart and you have to move on" kind of extreme too?

Okay, we've covered the nature of a relationship; but are you still telling me that you would choose the couple who fight consistently and badly over the couple who do fight, but get over it as you say? You tell me that their fights aren't as bad as you say, and I can't fathom that we're reading the same books. As far as I can tell, they spend more time NOT talking than actually talking. quote]

Tanuki, you grow on me with every post.

Actually being "torn apart" in a grown-up fight, isn't that extreme. I'm not talking about physical stuff, I'm talking about really deep hurts that get raked over when people angry. This is very normal and as couples mature, it happens less, but a couple who've been married for 50 years and know they shouldn't say certain things, still will say them if the right provocation arises. My husband and I know exactly what to say to each other to really hurt the other in the worst way. Fortunately, we've grown enough to quit doing it. And yes, you do limp through a forgiveness process and pick up the pieces and keep on going. Otherwise, there'd be many more divorces than there already are. There is not one difference in the problems married people face, that divorced people face. The difference comes in how people handle them. You can put just about marriage/relationship back together and keep it together as long as there are two people who want the relationship to be rebuilt. Just one partner wanting it, won't work. "Love covers a multitude of sins..."

But, for the sake of this discussion...

I have been rereading GoF, particularly a few of the fight scenes between Ron and Hermione. I note with interest places like this one on page 400.

"I can't come with you," said Hermione now blushing, She's talking to Ron. Why is she blushing? She doesn't blush when she talks to Harry. She's blushing because Ron is very thick and he didn't get it that she would have liked to have been asked by him, sooner.

We're not the only ones who notice there's something up with Ron and Hermione... on page 401.

Harry sighed. "Can't you think of anyone who'd go with Ron?" he said, lowering his voice so Ron wouldn't hear. "What about Hermione Granger?" said Parvati.

When we get to the Yule Ball, Harry notices Hermione looks great, but Ron has also noticed which is why he's so sulky. He masks his own disappointment in a big brawl over Hermione being disloyal to Harry by going to the dance with Krum, but it's obvious in the way he calls Krum "Vicky," that he's jealous as heck. It has nothing to do with the tournament.

By the end of the Yule Ball on page 432, Harry catches Ron and Hermione having another huge row, and this time Hermione let's Ron have it with, "Well if you don't like it, you know what the solution is don't you?" yelled Hermione; her hair coming down out of its elegant bun and her face was screwed up in anger....(Ron asks what the solution is or yells his question rather) Next time there's a ball, ask ME before someone else does and not as a last resort."

Every girl out there, including the girl that wrote the book, knows what it's like to nurse a secret affection for someone who does not have a clue and has not noticed, you're a female and your eligible. All Ron needed to have done, was ask Hermione to the dance. But he's not in touch with his feelings yet. We see no chapter, no nothing that leads us to believe that Hermione was disappointed that HARRY didn't ask her first. She's ticked at Ron, because she feels rejected by him. Not Harry. Harry notices she's pretty the way and older brother notices his younger sister is pretty. He's not noticing her, like a girlfriend. Ron though, through his sulkiness, has noticed. And Hermione, in spite of having the attention of Krum, isn't happy either.

Ron is dense, yes. But he's a kid. And he's not who he will be. He comes from a great family. He's got a lot of loyalty, and he's brave when he needs to be and a good true friend. Those are not "nothing" qualities. He was the first friend Harry had and he's stuck by him and Hermione, this whole time, even when he doesn't agree. And the thing I've noticed in reading over some of the fights with the ball, SPEW, etc., is that Ron is not afraid to Hermione's feelings. He tells her what he thinks. Harry is much more reserved in his responses because he doesn't want to hurt her. That level of honesty that Ron puts forth, even when he's telling her she's stupid, is a type of intimacy...it hints that there is more between them than what we see.

I have seen on other fansites, the theory that Ron and Hermione are already, behind the scenes, a couple....but Harry hasn't noticed yet.

[Tanuki]

Can we stop now? I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I'm actually getting bored with a ship fight. I think we're just going in circles here anyway

[Tanuki]

"Love covers a multitude of sins..."

One of my fave quotes from the bible, that and the one about stripping off the old personality and washing their robes in the blood of the lamb and all. It helps me to remind the less forgiving and conservatice in my congregation to shut up and stop saying bad things about groups they don't like.

Oh yeah, are you being sarcastic?

[Just Mom]

I'm rarely sarcastic. I'm too old for it.

Couldn't beat those GoF quotes eh? Just kidding.

[Lexi_potter]

Hermione, and Ron with Luna.

[Tanuki]

Let's let other people argue, and even GoF had harry hermy ones, they're just subtle

[Just Mom]

Let's let other people argue, and even GoF had harry hermy ones, they're just subtle

They're "just subtle?"

You're really cute.

[Tanuki]

Ya'know condacention doesn't work for me either