SPEW

[Mistress Siana]

To choose slavery, you have to be free first, otherwise you wouldn't be able to choose in the first place.

would they prefer freedom if it came with murder, crime, drugs, lies, betrayal, war, povery, sadness, and all the bad things in the world? being a "slave" lets you escape this world, and you are safe from it. you dont have to worry about the bad stuff.

This made me think. And I came to a conclusion which might be considered arrogant or self-righteous, but I'm willing to defend it.

The human mind, intelligence, common sense, a conscience, the ability to resist instinct - these things are said to be what distinguishes us from animals, what makes us civil and "special", what entitles us to human rights. But in my opinion, it also results in responsibility. For a potentially intelligent being, freedom is not (only) a right, but a duty.
There is a very thin line between tolerance and indifference, and if we choose to nestle in the cosiness of being lead, of not being responsible for anything, or if we choose what is easy over what we think is right, we are guilty.
I believe that, though the world may not just be black and white, what is right and what is wrong is not intirely relative. And I believe that there are basic moral principles that are unquestionable, such as man's right to live, freedom and equality.

So, if house elves are intelligent, this applies to them as well.

In the end, I believe servitude to be a better way for humans to live.

You included?

[Mistress Siana]

Oh, when I started to write the last post of mine, carsten's comment wasn't there yet...

In my opinion, it doesn't matter at all if it was forced on them in the first place, the way the situation is now, a single elf cannot choose whether he serves or not.

How we got into that discussion? I don't know, but I think it is important.

[Hagger 9003]

i have recently studied the african slave trade, and all the fights for freedom. the thing is, if you say anything against freedom nowdays, most people think you are a complete loony. i kno freedom is good, and it lets you think and all. but most people who describe freedom are people who are free. think about this for a minute.

someone already said that a slave would think that slavery is good. something about a peasant in the 17th century. they would regard freedom with the fear of the unknown. people have told them that they are in the best situation possible. they know nothing else, so they agree.

take a person in the 21st century. normal person, free society and all. they regard slavery with the fear of the unknown. people have told them that they are in the best situation possible. they know nothing else, so they agree.

parallel. freedom and slavery are right and wrong in different ways. slavery is evil with beatings, but there are good masters. freedom is evil with corruption, as people have the choice to do bad things, but people can chose good things as well. freedom and slavery are both good and bad. society says that free choice is the best, but thats just a trend. before that, everyone said that slavery was the best. this might be a trend as well.

slavery and freedom are pretty equal. if you are a true slave, you do not kno of the outside, and depending on your master, you have a good or bad life. if you are truly free, you kno about evrything, and depending on yourself, you have a good or bad life. your behaviour changes you. if you have a bad life as a slave, you want to be free. if you have a bad life as a free person, you would like to go back to being a slave to escape your troubles.

[Mistress Siana]

If it's just a matter of trends, freedom's clearly been more fashionable lately. Hundreds of wars have been fought for independance, and none for slavery.

You know, actually I used to say the same things. That nobody should be forced to assimilate to our precious principles; when the wars in Kosovo and Iraq began, I kept repeating that you cannot bomb a people into democracy. And there was always this little voice inside of my head, saying no? And here I go, passionately defending my opinion, debating over morality and laws, I buy the newspapers I want, I critizise the government, I vote, I travel wherever I want, all those little things. And then the little voice in my head reminds me that my own people were happily stretching out their hands to hail their leader, a monster, only sixty years ago. And I look at my caring, loving grandparents and wonder how on earth they could allow history to take the course it went. And the answer I get is just that. Because it was easy. Because it was convenient. You were told to have no will, so you had none, so you were not responsible. You were not allowed to talk about things, so you did not, so you better just didn't think about them at all. And I wonder where I would be now if freedom and democracy hadn't been forced on them, or how many deaths could have been prevented if it had been forced on them earlier.
That's why I'm so afraid of dictatorship and slavery, because taking one's choices means taking one's will, and taking one's will means taking one's conscience.
That's why I say freedom is a duty, even if people don't want it.

Sorry about all that, but I really needed to mention it.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Once again, I mention very bluntly coz nobody's listening that elves have been slaves for such a long time that it's no wonder they love doing it. They have simply beenbrought up with it the whole life, and see no wrong with it.
I think the point we should be focusing on, as fans of the books, is how the elves were enslaved in the first place. If wizards were, like humans very cruel in the long ago (because they didn't know better OK, don't start jumping down my throat here,) which is suggested in that "Quidditch Through the Ages" book for Comic Relief, when it tells us about Snidget hunting, then a battle of some sort may well have taken place. As we don't have too many ideas on how powerful elves are, it may have been one sided, or very close. Either way, somewhere along the line elves turned into "House Elves."
This is turning into a very serious topic, which is pretty much about the wa y we want to live our lives, and how much are we willing to let another culture suffer, without them even knowing what they are missing. It is of course freedom. And regardless of all the suffering in the world, the tears, the bombs the lives lost, all the bad things that happen.

At least we get to smell the roses.

[Hagger 9003]

i kno that people have a duty to freedom. but forcing things on people really upsets them often. freedom is about freedom of choice. people should be able to choose freedom. thats one of the few choices you have when you are a slave, the choice for freedom. i know it can break some peoples hearts to leave others in slavery, but look where that has lead us. afgahnistan and iraq, where america and her allies fought for freedom for the people, are now warzones. afgahnistan is basically ruled by warlords, and gives out more drugs than it ever did before. people need money, and drugs are a cash crop. in iraq there are freedom fighters who are fighting the americans. but the americans are supposed to be the freedom fighters. all this shows that you cant force a choice, and you must decide yourself about freedom. you have your own opinion siana, and thats good. but the thing is you cant force people to change their ways.

forcing is the easy thing to do, but it isnt effective. you must try to convince someone, and if you are going to do it properly, you need to show people both sides of the coin. freedom has advantages and disadvantages. one of the disadvantages is that people who are free want all other people to be free, even if the people who arent free like life as it is. i looked myself at freedom and slavery, and i think that both can be bad or good. slavery, when you have a good master, is good. and good masters do exist. its just that no onw remembers the good things. everyone thinks of the negative things, and forgets the good stuff in life. its stupid. life is for living, and although some things are bad, there is good everywhere. did you kno that hitler's scientists discovered that smoking kills people before anyone else? he was a terrible, sadistic and cruel man, and should never have lived, but if that information had been made available, thousands of people would still be alive today.

you cant say that freedom is good and slavery is bad. they each have advantages, and differences. that is how it works. if germany had had democracy forced on them in the way they did it in kosovo, germany would have not become a democracy. if someone kills your family, bombs your home, and says "go vote!' you wont do it. that is what had happened. slavery has a bad reputation. freedom has a good one now, but if you go to iraq and say democracy is good, you are lynched. however, if you say slavery is good to normal people, they act like you are a wierdo. freedom and slavery are equal.

[Tanuki]

Lady, I'm a chef. Servitude is part of the package. You don't work at your own pace; you work specifically for the customers

Servitude is not an easy choice, it means becoming the living arm of someone else. the loss of opinion or thought only happens when you let it. There can be educated slaves. We still have regarded servitude with the loss of will. You consider slavery to be that one person has all the power, and that is quite impossible, since the people still have the ability to change things.

In America we bind our lives to the will of one person to lead us for four years, and unless he does something illegal, we have little recourse to stop what he does, yet we still consider ourselves free supposedly, think about that

I personally consider servitude to be the human equivolent to symbiosis. One person has the means and one the strength so the one with the means cares for the one with the strength and in return has this strength at his disposal. They are bound together.

[Hagger 9003]

Lady, im a man.

that is the good thing about being a slave. freedom is independence, but interdependence is good as well. that is why slavery and freedom are both good. in slavery, people can be exploited, which is why people who are free can choose not to work with others.

yeh, i do tend to think of one master, but that doesnt make much of a difference. you just get different experiences for everyone. you can have a good or a bad customer. a bad customer can make you want to change jobs, but then a good customer makes you like the job.

thats the problem with freedom, tanuki. if you have a president who is elected, and then allowed to do pretty much what he wants, it cannot be good. presidents are a problem, because the only people who would want all the power are either people with ridiculouly large egos, or people who want to exploit the power. not many people really want to help the people. leadership is a dodgy thing, and hard to work out.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Yeah, go Prime Ministers!
Ahem... OK you can all go on with you deeply serious conversation now...

[carsten]

freedom and slavery are equal.

Hagger: Are you depressed about life in general? I am trying to understand your position, but it is difficult for me. Correct me if I am wrong: You think a happy slave is better off than a miserable free man. You agree with being a slavemaster, as long as slaves are treated well. You use the emotional scale ("happy") as the ultimate proof for behaviour.

My viewpoint is somewhat different: It is better to be a miserable free man than a happy slave, because you are in control. If you are a happy slave, you are lucky. If times change: bad luck, no influence. A free man is in the driver's seat of his life. He is responsible for all the good and the bad things he encounters.

The emotional scale is important, but not the only one and certainly not the most important. Think of a thief: When he steals something from you, he may be happy. Is it OK? No! And a slave master is stealing freedom (and other things like work force, health etc) from slaves.


Oops, this has become serious...

[Tanuki]

Lady, im a man.

I was talking to Siana, I kind of have to backtrack a lot of posts to answer. That's the way it is when playing Devil's advocate. You have to swim upstream

[Tanuki]

freedom and slavery are equal.

Hagger: Are you depressed about life in general? I am trying to understand your position, but it is difficult for me. Correct me if I am wrong: You think a happy slave is better off than a miserable free man. You agree with being a slavemaster, as long as slaves are treated well. You use the emotional scale ("happy") as the ultimate proof for behaviour.

My viewpoint is somewhat different: It is better to be a miserable free man than a happy slave, because you are in control. If you are a happy slave, you are lucky. If times change: bad luck, no influence. A free man is in the driver's seat of his life. He is responsible for all the good and the bad things he encounters.

The emotional scale is important, but not the only one and certainly not the most important. Think of a thief: When he steals something from you, he may be happy. Is it OK? No! And a slave master is stealing freedom (and other things like work force, health etc) from slaves.


Oops, this has become serious...

The idea is simple, freedom is an illusion. You are never really in control of your situation, so the whole idea that being a miserable free is better is really moot. A free man is not in the driver's seat of his life, seeing as he still has to contend with his own needs, still has to work, still has to pay his own way, still has to take care of himself. He probably can say that he doesn't want to work anymore, but then he puts himself in the predicament of not eating or living under a roof. A slave may not have a choice in working or not, but their basic needs and accomidations are taken care of by their master, so they can focus on other things in life

A long time ago, before the idiots of the world decided to remove human rights, slavery was never thought of this way. It was simpl a deal struck whereby one man would agree to serve another man in exchange for financial assistance. In turn he lived with his new boss and took on the role of a worker. In some cases, the slave was treated well, so well in fact that he permanently tied himself to his master (Thus one of the habits of piercing ears was to show that you were permanently owned). If the slave was mistreated, the master was severely punished and the slave let go. The abuses you think of are inventions of the 18th to 20th centuries.

On your death beds, you will not consider if you were free or not, but on what kind of life you lived. If you live a good life with lots of good experiences, freedom is a subnote.

[carsten]

The idea is simple, freedom is an illusion....On your death beds, you will not consider if you were free or not, but on what kind of life you lived. If you live a good life with lots of good experiences, freedom is a subnote.

You have a very indulgent view on slavery, but a harsh one on freedom.

How do you measure the experiences of life? Having luck? Being happy? Winning the lottery? You know, that none of these are lasting or make you a better person.

Illusion? Taking over responsibility, caring for yourself and others are keys to break through the strong illusions of our daily life. Being a happy slave is resignation.

Yes, I am somewhat extreme by saying that I am responsible for all things coming into my life. To give you an idea: A western movie buff was told, that none of the heroic stories ever happened in real history. He replied: "But they should have happened!" What a wise man.

[Hagger 9003]

i have to say i agree with tanuki. you have responsibility to make other people happy, and not depressed. you can be happy in any circumstance, there are just different ways of being happy, and sometimes it is easier to be happy than other times.

carsten, being a happy slave is resignation to making the best of the circumstances, yes. but so is being a person in an office, doing the same thing everyday. they are resigning to the fact that they are free, but are not doing anything about it. i think that happiness is a good judge of how good somthing is, because what else does a human strive for? happiness, or peace of mind. and you need to have peace of mind before you can be happy, and you can get it when you are a slave or when you are free.

you are thinking of one type of slavery. the unfair type. i agree that not all slavery is good. i also think that freedom can be bad. if you have freedom of choice, you often mess up, and become sad. you need to be happy, while taking other people into consideration. if you have a good master, you are in a good situation, but if you have a bad master, you are in a bad situation.

a free man is not responsible for all that happens in life. the people who died in the world trade center disaster in new york didnt have responsiblility. a slave is not responsible for as much as a free man, but he is still responsible for his fellow slaves, and often for children.

happiness is the idicator of if you are enjoying life. you need to take into consideration other peoples happiness, and if you do that, and still are happy, you have a good life.

[Mistress Siana]

I guess our opinions differ on that matter. I don't think happiness is an appropriate jugde on the way things are, I moreover believe that most of the times the choice is between what makes you happy and what is right. Even if slavery was what made people happiest, it would still be wrong. So I'm happily fraternising with Dumbledore on that matter.