A death in HBP

[*Lily*]

Jk has told us that there will be a death in HBP but it's not Harry (Duh!) I wonder who it is. Maybe the HBP himself or some one else.

I have had a theory since I read the prophecy in ootp. In order for Harry to Kill Voldemort, I think something big will have to happen to empower him and give him the strength and courage to do it. I think that the something big will be Voldemort killing Dumbledore.

Dumbledore has become a major factor in Harry's life. Other Than Ron and Hermione, He is Harry's closest confidant and advisor. Dumbledore Has saved Harry many times and Is the only one Voldemort is afraid of. With Sirius out of the picture (moment of silence for our fallen friend) Dumbledore will be a father figure to Harry. He will be Family to him.

This is why I think that It will take Dumbledore's death for Harry to defeat Lord Voldemort. I had pictured it happening in the seventh book but JK wouldn't have given us the clue about a death in the book if it wasn't going be a major death.

[Just Mom]

Lily you have some excellent theories. You had another one somewhere else that was quite good too.

I think I would disagree that DD will die in book six. I think he'll definitely die before the series is over, but I think it will be more of a climax in book 7. My theory is that Lupin will become "the father figure" to Harry now that Sirius is gone. And actually, Sirius wasn't exactly a father figure really, he was more like a big brother/older pal. In another topic we discussed Sirius' stunted emotional growth because his life was interrupted by prison.

Anyway, since she has said one character will die in this one, I'm thinking it will be someone that is not terribly major but not actually minor either. Sirius was kind of like that. He was really a bit of a distant figure but of importance to Harry. We really didn't get that much of him until OotP and he and Harry didn't have that many emotional/intimate exchanges. Harry's really had more intimacy and emotional exchanges (negative though) with Snape.

I think the death will be someone we've heard of more than once, but not someone on the main group of inside folks or someone that the widespread audience has a great emotional investment in if you know what I mean. These are children's books afterall.

[Mistress Siana]

I fully agree with Lily's theory, as I've said before, with Dumbledore around, Harry is safe. But how can he ever be a hero when he's constantly protected, when there's never a real danger for his life? In every 'good vs bad' battle, there has to be a point where the reader asks himself: "Oh my god, how are they ever gonna get out of this?". But that's impossible with someone as strong as DD around, so for the sake of Harry being the Hero, DD has to die.

[*Lily*]

Exactly Misstress Siana! That's what I mean! Dumbledore is always there for him. Harry can never be the wizard that he needs to be in order to kill Voldemort with Dumbledore around to save his butt!

[Mint]

But...nooo...

Thats a really good point (harry being safe as long as DD is around).... Maybe....May be he will die at the END of book 6!!!! THat way you guys will all be right!!

THough may be Revmom is right about this sort of death not being very nice for kids....but then again - JRK said that kids are growing together with these books - so she can put "stronger" stuff in them as kids who started reading them when they just came out are growing up too.

[Just Mom]

No, no. You misunderstood me. I have thought all along that Dumbledore will probably die in the series. I don't think the 6th book is the place for that to happen though. It brings an important climax (not the only climax but an important peak in the storyline) probably too soon if he dies in book six. I would imagine DD will die in book 7. Whether it's a violent death (as in Voldemort kills him) or more dignified death (as in his old body just conks out or he's wounded in a battle and dies afterwards) won't really be the point. Lily is right in that DD's passing will probably be what is needed for Harry to face Voldemort on his own. (not trying to inject too much Star Wars here but Luke Skywalker couldn't fight Darth Vader until Obi Wan and Yoda were dead)

As to where kids are readers is concerned in terms of characters dying, DD passing away will not seem that foreign to a young reader. Old people die. DD is very very old. Every kid, even very little kids know that. I don't believe though, that JKR the mother and the teacher, will write a death of a main character that does not make sense, as in the death has some purpose to it or something good can come from it in spite of the sadness. She said in an interview that's she's highly critical of "gratuitous violence." She won't write gory stuff or highly emotionally charged deaths (i.e. Ron or Hermione) just for the heck of it or the shock value.

[*Lily*]

nobody thinks that DD's death will be pointless. I too imagined it happening in the seventh book but maybe Harry will need time to recover from the loss of DD before he fights Voldemort again. We don't want Harry to go after Vodemort all willynilly and get himself killed avenging DD. We want him to have coped and be ready to do what he has to do. So I now think that DD does have to die in book 6.

[*Lily*]

Sorry about the double post...

I had to comment on snape. Right now I don't think Harry would care that Snape died or not. When Harry entered Snape's thoughts in the pensieve, he learned something about him and his father. but what is really important about that scene is that Harry and snape have come to the boiling point and now all that is left for them to do is for Snape to realize that Harry is not his father and for Harry to realize that Snape is on his side. Harry owes him an apology and Snape needs to accept it and move on. I don't ever expect them to be friends but they need to stop thinking of each other as enemies. Snape will not be the one to die in book 6 because they have not gotten to this point yet and it would be too soon.

[Just Mom]

Somewhere we discussed this before, but from an author's perspective, characters take on very special meaning to their creators. DD is a very special character who essentially opens the first book with his appearanced on Privet Drive. He's been supremely important in all five books so far. I would imagine that JKR will give him a very special death, something that is appropriate with the way his life has been lived. That would take time. And then there's the school to think about. Right now there's not another professor "ready" to become the headmaster of Hogwarts. That would take time too. If the 7th book is the finale, that would seem a good place to have endings and beginnings for all characters and institutions and organizations. At the moment, there's not even a suitable person obviously groomed and ready to take over the Order of the Phoenix that we know of and the kids certainly can't do it. I think book 6 will start bringing who will be the successor to DD in both Hogwarts and the Order, to the front as it progresses and then wrap up in book 7 with the "changing of the guard" so to speak.

What about this? Instead of DD dying, suppose he becomes incapacitated somehow? He's still around for awhile longer but not able to do what he could before and Harry is left nearly on his own to face LV.

I like Lily's thoughts on Snape. I too see some resolution coming in that relationship as well as Aunt Petunia.

What other characters are reasonably possible deaths for book 6?

[*Lily*]

I'm sorry Revmom. I have to disagree with you when you say that no one is ready to take his place. McGonagol is. She is Deputy Head Mistress of Hogwarts and DD's right hand man (well woman...) at the order of the pheonix. I think that if anything should happen to DD she would be the one to step up and take charge. She has been second in charge since the first book. It would only make since.

My only other idea for someone else to be the death in HBP is the HBP himself whomever it may be.

[Just Mom]

Professor McGonagall is a wonderful character and she has been in an administrative sense, just below DD at Hogwarts. But at the end of OotP she is only newly released from Saint Mungos after being hit by the four stunning spells, "leaning heavily on a walking stick...but otherwise looked quite well." It's going to take her more time to recover from that attack both physically and emotionally.

The problem with McGonagall taking DD's place is that I don't recall her being the kind of character that often thinks outside the box that much. DD as headmaster and in every other capacity, is quite comfortable thinking outside the box and isn't afraid to act innovatively or go against the majority thought. McGonagall is a great follower, the kind of individual no great leader can do without because she's loyal and she obeys orders without questioning much. But I really don't think (especially in light of her recuperation period) she's anywhere near ready to fill DD's shoes, not unless something truly remarkable happens to her personality or we're shown something else about her that we haven't seen yet. Most of her interactions with students and with DD have her receiving information, instructions, or giving standard instructions and following established rules, but only rarely do we see her really get outside her comfort zone. The one time she did most strongly, she got zapped with the stunning spells. Even when things are happening that she doesn't agree with or like, she tends to try to not rock the boat until absolutely necessary. Truly great leaders don't play it that safe.

Snape (as much as we love to hate him) probably has more potential to develop into a great leader and take DD's place -if his bitterness doesn't eat him alive first- and this is evidenced with how often he dares, with confidence, to disagree with DD's choices. He's also a very powerful, knowledgable, experienced (on sides both good and bad which means he's not naive) wizard and he was DD's choice to teach Harry occlumency. JKR went to great lengths in OotP to show us more of Snape than we've seen before. Figuratively speaking, (if I could sew) there's plenty of fabric to let out in his character that would enable him to do and be more than what we've already seen.

[Mistress Siana]

If there was anyone who could readily take over DD's place, then where would the sense of his death be? In my opinon, this is why he has to die: Because he will leave a gap than noone can fill. In this case, his death would take the order to a point at which winning the war seems impossible. This is necessary for the plot, because a victory that was never in danger won't feel like a victory at all. See what I mean? If there was someone to replace him, his death would be meaningless as far as the story developement is concerned.

About Snape...I've been thinking quite a lot about him, especially since OotP. I think he will never give up his conviction that Harry is like his father (and he's not entirely wrong at this point). Actually, I see it as a kind of irony in the story: From the things Harry got to know during the occlumency lessons, we've learned what kind of man Snape's father was. A hook-nosed greasy bustard, a brutal man embarrassing weaker ones, someone Snape feared and most certainly hated. And what is Snape now? A hook-nosed greasy bustard, mean and brutal, embarrassing weaker ones, like the man he hated. If it happened to him, why should Harry Potter, who, after all, adores his father, be different? Like father, like son.
I don't think they'll overcome their hatred, or even their disrespect; I guess that if Snape dies, Dumbledore will be the only one to care (unless DD dies earlier, that is). I think Snape will be a bitter, lonley, hated hero for whom nobody is going to cry, even if he saves the world. Actually, I like him best that way, it's so tragic.

[*Lily*]

Gosh Siana. That's brutal. I agree that no one should take dd's place. But about Harry and Sanpe's relationship never getting better, I must disagree. Harry has become less like his father, especially at the end of ootp. Harry does not want the lime light like his father. He does not choose to flip other students over so that their knickers are showing. Harry has the world on his shoulders and the man he is becoming reflects that and not his admiration for his father. Yes He loves him. He had a good father. But as Harry enters a world at war that he himself is in the center of and he himself must end, his love for his father will not hinder him in seeing that snape is really good. or at least trying to be.

[Mistress Siana]

Actually that's what I hope, but I'm a pessimist (well, as far as my HP theories are concerned). You're right, in OotP, Harry began to see his father and his relationship to Snape in a different light, he even started to feel sympathy for Snape, but still, he hates him like nobody else. This is exactly what he thinks at the end. I don't remember the exact words, but they made me stop and swallow, because it means that Harry hates Snape more than Voldemort, who killed his parents, or Bellatrix, who killed Sirius and tortured the Longbottoms. The realtionship between Harry and Snape is irrationally emotional, and I really want to know why.

[Just Mom]

This is probably an issue of semantics, but I think we're all in agreement that DD will not survive the series, it's just a matter of when. And it should go without saying that no one can replace DD but in practical issues, somebody has to at some point and that's a given too. The school, the order, will have a successor and some are more ready or can be quickly made ready than others.

I don't think I'm nearly so cynical about Snape and Harry as Mistress Siana's earlier post. It reminds me of when I was much younger and had teachers I absolutely couldn't stand, but came to respect later on as I understood them. The relationship with Snape is "irrationally emotional" but I think we will find out why (I suspect it has more to do with Snape's feelings about Lily than Snape's issues with James...which were only exacerbated when Lily married James) in the coming books. I don't think that will be something that's left unresolved. I think we'll see a gradual turning of Snape and Harry towards one another to at least get on a handshake level. That is what appears to be building up from OotP.