Sirius's Death in Question

[Phinea Rogue]

I don't know, maybe we'll see a portairt of Sirius or something similar, but I believe he's definitely dead. Poor guy, I kind of liked him, although he wasn't among my favourite characters (among the most favourite characters). But I don't think he died uselessly. He died in a battle, fighting for a good things and coming to Harry's help, it's only that his death was so ... weird... that veil, I didn't understand at first that it killed him.

[thestral]

i'll be very disapointed if that was all there was to sirius's death he desrved better than to fall through a bloody curtain and if you hadn't already guessed sirius is my favourite character (i also imgine him to be extremely good looking, bit like aragorn in lotr, rugged and tough but that's another topic! lol ) but his death in battle didn't save anyone, it didn't further the fight against voldemort, he wasn't even meant to be there it's the most pointless death ever and he deserved better!!!!!! and i'm still very upset (sob, sob ). he was only getting started in his relationship with harry and stuff and then he dies, it's not unfair!!! (hence uncontrollable wailing)

[Phinea Rogue]

Oh yes, he surely was good-looking, I've always imagined him like that (but not really like Aragorn, more ... I don't know, finer, not that rough). I think that JKR too said that he was the handsomest of the Maradeurs.

[thestral]

you see the real injustice isn't that harry lost his godfather or that the whole wizarding world never found out his innocence it's that the best-looking or in JK's words "handsomest" character was robbed from us!! the readers!!! (sometimes the best-looking guys are the ones in books, like wuthering heights? heathcliff.......mmmm)

[Phinea Rogue]

To me Heathcliff is more like... Snape, I'm afraid, but a perfect character.

Maybe by the end of the book, Sirius will be declared innocent, although that will be quite late, but at least everyone surviving will know that he was innocent.

[Just Mom]

Heathcliff? Wuthering Heights?

You know, I read that book/saw the movie as a teenager and thought, "Wow...that's so romantic." And then I grew up. I read that book again two years ago and thought, "Gross...these are the most selfish, idiotic people in the world and nobody loves anybody in this book except themselves." Ah the drudge of getting older.

In the "theological world" that I live in, death doesn't mean "the end," it's just another beginning somewhere else and "life." a fuller life even, continues. I don't fully understand the curtain thing either (except that it sounds like Plato and "the veil" that separates this life from the next which according to Plata is actual reality) but I would think that as smart as JKR is, that "life" is going on for Sirius, on the other side. I can't believe either, that we've seen the last of him but how that will play out, I don't know, but my hunch is that there is more to be revealed.

Can anyone refresh me on the official JKR response as to why some become ghosts and some do not? (Thanks!)

[thestral]

OH MY GOD!!!!! i just nearly fell off my chair in shock and horror!! Heathcliff is nothing like snape!!! heathcliff is the best character in all of literature!!! oh god i can't even begin to describe the genius that is wuthering heights and the creation of the greatest character in all of literature. it's so timeless! and the film?!?!? the film i watched in class the other day and it was so bad i laughed my way through it, not romantic, schmalchy cr*p!!! it is the sort of book that can never be put into any other form it exists singularly in the mind throught the power of it's language and characters. I'm sorry i know harry potter forum but wuthering heights is my absolute favourite book of all time and i can't even begin to express.... everything!! i will happily debate your views on the charcaters who you think are selfish any time, just not on this thread where the topic isn't heathcliff, wuthering heights etc. i'm sorry i rant when it comes to WH and as i'm sure you've noticed in my past posts i love sirius but i love heathcliff and wuthering heights like 10 milion times more, IT'S MY SOUL!!!!! hmmm maybe i should have a wuthering heights forum.

sorry please forgive me for my rants and outbursts anyway i hope you now don't think of me as a crazy person. just very passionate about WH! anyway back to the topic, i think your theory on the veil being like the other side is pretty spot on that's what it seemed like. it just didn't seem like the end i'm sure there is more to come. and i do think that eventually sirius's innocence will be revealed, it has to be, i don't think that harry, dumble dore, lupin or anyone who came to know sirius would allow his reputation as a murderer to live on as his legacy.

P.S - out on the wily, windy moors we roll and roll in green, you had a temper like my jealousy too hot, too greedy, how could you leave me when i needed to possess you, I hated you i loved you too...

[Just Mom]

Please forgive me. I didn't mean to impugn the integrity of the writing of Wuthering Heights. It is afterall, a classic. And the Bronte girls were amazing and I love their other stuff too. But few of the characters in Wuthering Heights have many redeeming qualities. Heathcliff sucumbs to extreme bitterness and a need for revenge and that fuels most of the choices in his life. And Cathy, oh please, don't even go there because she willy-nillied her way through the whole thing. And as beautiful as the prose is, needing to possess someone, is not love, never has been, never will be. It just isn't. That's probably the point of the book, exposing human ignorance as to what love truly is and what it truly isn't. I much prefer Jane Eyre and they way she loved Mr. Rochester even though the circumstances didn't lend themselves well to their relationship. At least neither of them were deliberately trying to spitefully hurt the other all the way to the very end.

I much prefer A Tale of Two Cities as my favorite example of what honorable love is...sacrifice because it's the right thing to do, even when the love isn't returned in the way you hope. "It is a far far better thing I do than I have ever done...." Sidney Carton says. Unforgettable.

But as this pertains to Harry Potter...

JKR, being a reader and a teacher and well-versed in the classics, is probably trying to slip those traits into her characters. I don't think Sirius is nearly bitter enough to be even close to Heathcliff so that doesn't work. Snape is too well, Snape-ish to be close to Heathcliff although they do have the bitterness in common. Snape might be more like Captain Bly from Mutiny on the Bounty, someone who insists on doing things a certain way even when it's not reasonable and no longer makes much sense. I think we should all think more about what is going on behind that veil that Sirius fell through. Are there any other places in the halls of literature where someone goes to the other side and comes back? Is Gandalf a good example of this?

[Nightcrawler]

Can anyone refresh me on the official JKR response as to why some become ghosts and some do not? (Thanks!)

From what I can remember; when a wizard dies, he or she is faced with a choice. They can either pass into the "next" world/afterlife, or they can return to this world as ghosts.

Nick told Harry that he would not be seeing a ghost of Sirius.

I think that it has been implied ghosts are constantly lonely so most wizards choose not to become ghosts. Most of the time when a wizard chooses to become a ghost, it is out of fear. Fear of the unknown afterlife. Sirius was a very brave man so I don't think he would be afraid to pass on into the next world.

It is also an interesting coincidence that among the ghosts we know about seemed to be in horribly depressing situations when they died (Mertyl, Nick and probably the Bloody Barron).

Edit: And Muggles can't come back as ghosts whatsoever. The mirror that Sirius gave Harry will definetly be important somehow though...

[Just Mom]

Thank you Nightcrawler. Excellent post.

You're right, all the ghosts we see in the castle do seem to have some unfortunate event associated with their death. I didn't realize though that the wizards had "a choice" of whether to move on or hang around but that makes sense. Now I'm wondering if it was the spell that killed Sirius or falling through the curtain itself or a combination of both. I need to go back and reread that section. You're right about that mirror too, I feel certain that has some significance and it would seem that there should be some channels with which those on the other side can communicate with those on this side. On the other hand, those on the other side can probably see pieces of the puzzle that this side can't see but I would imagine they aren't able to reveal much or reveal much except in certain circumstances. What about dreams? Harry's had some dreams already but do you think it's possible that some of these characters might communicate with Harry through his dreams?

The father of Methodism, John Wesley, once wrote that when he dreamed of a saint who had passed on and they had a lively conversation that seemed so real he put in his journal, "I doubt not that they were very near." If JKR is moving more into the realm of the hereafter, that might too become a mode of communication between the worlds.

[Phinea Rogue]

When I read that scene with Sirius's death and Nick's words and discussed it with my friend, she was sure that Sirius will come back as a ghost, because she can't see any other way for him returning. But I think that, sad as it is, Sirius is "finished", I don't believe he'll come back. Maybe it's possible to speculate that he would come back for Harry, but he doesn't seem like wanting to stay here and he certainly wasn't afraid of death.

But when he died, did he have the mirror with him? Maybe he felt through the veil with the mirror? That's something I actually doubt, but why not? If the border between this and that world is only one veil, then it's not any big border...

PS: I love Wuthering Highs very much too (but Sirius really doesn't seem like Heathcliff to me at all). When I first read it, I hated it and later when I read it again, as older, I liked it very, very much.

[thestral]

well, i agree with you on one thing about WH, cathy (original cathy) i don't really like cos she's a bloody arse, she rejected heathcliff and comes over all woe is me. she annoyed me because she bowed to society and class and when she said "it would degrade me to marry heathcliff" GRRRR !!. BUt sadly we differ on opinions of true love because to me that book is love, not the clean, sanitised love we've come to expect but pure, heart-wrenching passion for one another's soul. To me that is love, uncultivated love (like the moor their love is uncivilsed by society and society's expectations). I swear that book can make me cry just from their passion and when cathy is talking about 'I AM heathcliff....'.etcetc. see to me the purpose of the book is just to show their love, not their ignorance of it. love is unpredictable and can take so many forms i don't think you can pin one sort of love down as right and others as ignorance, people are different so all people love in different ways. i'm never realised i was a hopeless romantic until i read that book, it changed me! and like you said the prose is so beautiful it has a real indefinable quality about it. I am going to read Jane Eyre over xmas so i can compare, i've heard good things but alas i bear a grudge against Charlotte Bronte because she talked about WH really badly, like sayings it was the ramblings of a childish mind and that emily didn't actually know what she was writing, . but i do want to read it. Oh and i have to read a tale of 2 cities, i have a long have-to-read list, one of the ones i mean to get round to but never do !!

and sorry clear up what i meant about heathcliff in relation to sirius, just that in my head both sirius and heathcliff are both, dark and well manly and all that womanly tall dark and handsome stuff and i unfortunatly cannot help but love. i wouldn't consider them similar in personality, sirius is good just a bit rash, heathcliff is well brutish, hangs dogs and very bent on vengence.(and still i love him!)

Hmmm interesting about other literature where people come back fro the other side, gandalf yes cos he came back but i'm not sure, they seem quite different well actually maybe not, both fell in battle... hmmm i can't think of anything quite like this veil thing, but i think it's going to be so important, just can't figyure out why. likewise with the mirror

and wow! great ideas about the dreams Rev mom! i like your idea that they can understand more but can't really reveal it. but i think that very extreme circumstances will probably occur in the next two books and sirius and harry had a very stong connection so maybe a combination of events and their connection will bring sirius back for like a second or something to save harry or help him in his time of need like the way his parents came out of the wand, maybe echoes of sirius? or actaully sirius? but dumbledore was very certain sounding when he said the dead can never return after cedric's death in GoF. BUt harry's always had a thing about dreams, they've warned him , tormented him, screwed him over, maybe this is how sirius will get back to him.

because sirius always felt such a duty to harry i don't think he'll be able to rest in the afterlife or whatever because until he knows harry is safe and happy he won't be able to rest. i don't know like his unfinished buisness?

I also got the impression that it was falling through the veil that killed him not the spell cos it seemed to be a stunner, it was red.

HEY!! what if because sirius wasn't dead when he went through the veil he can come back somehow, maybe he's trapped between worlds, not dead not living, not a ghost. if he was only stunned he's only trapped behind the curtain, i mean it was inthe mysteries department so there must be something funky going on with it maybe wizards have tried to use it to travel between worlds and have become trapped, it's dangerous so it's obvoiusly hidden away. like if someone died and someone thought they could get back to them through the veil to take themto the world of the dead or whatever, then maybe explorers are trapped? wizards who are exploring travel between worlds could use the veil as a portal to other worlds? oh i'm so talking gibberish now in a desperate feeble attempt to convince myself that sirius isn't dead. he just doesn't SEEM dead, does that sound crazy??? sorry crazy??!! here's a girl who's spent forever blathering about wuthering heights on a harry potter forum. by the way sorry i promise to never mention it again because my fingers just type and i can't stop them!

[Phinea Rogue]

Just some thoughts...

BUt harry's always had a thing about dreams, they've warned him , tormented him, screwed him over, maybe this is how sirius will get back to him.

because sirius always felt such a duty to harry i don't think he'll be able to rest in the afterlife or whatever because until he knows harry is safe and happy he won't be able to rest. i don't know like his unfinished buisness?

I think that Harry's dreams are all connected to Voldemort or aren't they? I don't have the books with me (my bf is reading them), but I dimly remember his dreams as coming from the connection he has with Voldie.

maybe wizards have tried to use it to travel between worlds and have become trapped, it's dangerous so it's obvoiusly hidden away.

I remember that someone (probably in this forum) once suggested that the veil could have been used for death sentences and that anyone who has fallen through, died. How is that room called?

Since so far there're no explanations about the veil, I can only speculate, but I think that it did kill him. Lupin says so, he ensures Harry that Sirius died. When I read it the first time, I didn't understand it immediately, but then, re-reading it, it was clear to me that he's dead.

[Just Mom]

Okay, I've been rereading OotP all day( when I'm supposed to be finishing my very last paper for my very last class with my master's degree...now how mature is that?) I tried -in vain- to find out more about the mirror Sirius gave Harry. Somebody help me. Is that what Sirius gives him right before Harry goes back to Hogwarts after Christmas in the "poorly wrapped package" that he doesn't want others in the Order to know he's given Harry? Does it show up anywhere else? My skimming wasn't doing much good.

It does seem clear that Sirius, from rereading the death scene, is fully "dead" as Dumbledore confirms it with Harry who can't believe it either. Whether it was the fall through the curtain or the spell, Dumbledore says he's dead and since Dumbledore is perhaps the most trusted character in the series, I think I have no choice but to believe him. However, Dumbledore does talk about things "worse than death' which confirms to me that in the JKR afterlife, there is an afterlife for the wizards. If she borrows at all from classic theological thinkers like Saint Augustine (in City of God) then she may have a "heaven" where the good wizards are living in peace, happiness, eternal light, etc. and a great chasm that prevents those who are not good, from crossing into the good area. The torment in Saint Augustine's version comes from seeing those who are happy and being forced to watch them throughout eternity without being able to join them. In ancient Jewish thought, (this changed later) the afterlife was just nothingness. An eternal sleep. When Dumbledore says there are things worse than death, I wasn't so sure if he was talking about the next life, or this one, as in living a life that has no meaning or purpose or is continually filled with evil.

Thestral, I really like your reckless-abandon type of passion. Enjoy your Christmas break and read Jane Eyre. The curl-cutting/stool-standing section kills me every time.

[Broccoli]

Are there any other places in the halls of literature where someone goes to the other side and comes back? Is Gandalf a good example of this?

Oh yes, Gandalf! He also was suposed to be gone forever and yet he came back! Well, maybe it's just because he's well, Gandalf, the powerful wizard for now only Dumbledore is similar to, but when I think of it, it seems to me that JK could have had this motive of disappearing forever in mind, and who knows, maybe Sirius's destiny will be similar to that of Gandalf's!