Do you really want them to kill?

[Eos]

Hello everyone! An new one with a new topic...
I have been following this great forum for quite a while and I'm really astonished by it's constant funny, interesting and smart conversations!
I was just reading this Who is your least fav character in book five-thread. Some people wrote "I hate him/her 'cause this and that and I really want Harry/Nevile/... to kill him or her."
Do you really want that?
I remeber a discussion about Harry not being able to do the cruciatus-curse "properly". Is he, as a "good" person actually able to do it? Don't you have to be full of hatred to do the unforgivables to another human? What do you think?

Eon

[Female_alien]

I know what you're trying to say. I didn't say I want to kill Umbridge or Bellatrix because I don't want to. But I would really want Neville to revenge his parents because that women is really cold, evil.
I belive you have to really wish someone to die and be full of hatred to use Avada Kedavra or Crucio and that's exactly why I'm afraid Neville won't be able to hurt Bellatrix.
But then again, Dumbledore is a good person and I'm sure that he can do the unforgivables if he wanted to. So yes, I think you have to wish to kill someone to really use the unforgivable curses. If Harry really wished that, he could do the Crucio curse very easy - but the problem is he doesn't want that. Well, that's not a problem, that's a good thing but I hope you get my point. Harry hates Bellatrix but I belive he doesn't want her dead.

[Athena Appleton]

I think Harry, Neville, or any other "good guys" have to WANT to kill to use the unforgivable curses... but there have got to be other ways to kill than Avada Kedavra... hmmm....

A thought that just crossed my mind... I really believe Crouch/Moody used the Imperius Curse on the students under Dumbledore's orders... I think Voldemort used it liberally the last time he had a lot of power, and that was what was so terrible... that people were doing horrible things that they wouldn't normally do, so I think it's only reasonable that he would want to teach the students to be able to fight it off... BUT... if Bellatrix Lestrange is to be believed, you can only do the unforgivables if you WANT to, so that means either Dumbledore didn't know you can only do the unforgivables if you WANT to, he knew Moody would WANT to, or Bellatrix is lying. I wouldn't really put it past her. I think she was able to fight off the Cruciatus Curse and only said what she did about righteous anger to hurt Harry even more.

*shrug* Maybe I'm on to something, maybe I need sleep. Either way, it's interesting...

And, no, ultimately, I woudln't want Harry or Neville to kill (except in Book 7 when Harry gets rid of Voldy for good). I want Neville to be able to avenge his parents deaths, but then again, I don't.

Good challenging question, though, Eos.

[Centaur Lord]

In a way, i think this relates to the Lord of the Rings....The whole time, the audience wants the ring to be destroyed, because it is such an evil object. Now, even though the ring IS destroyed at the end, Frodo is so changed by this event in his life, both emotionally and physically, that he will never be the same again. Not so much in the movie, but in the book it explains that once he gets back to the Shire, he finds that he cannot live the life that he did before, because it is too painful. This is one of the main reasons that he leaves middle earth forever.

On that note, this opens up a whole new view of possibilities for Harry once the books are completed. Perhaps he will defeat Voldemort, but he will not die. However, he might be so emotionally scarred that he cannot live a normal life. I know that none of us wants that because we all want to see Harry "live happily ever after", but what if this does happen?

Now, to finally answer the question...
Do we really want it to happen? No
Does it need to happen? Yes. to fully conquer evil, there will have to be some sacrifices, and killing will have to be one of them.


Sorry, if this is rambling (it probably is). Its very late, im very tired, and i probably wouldnt catch any of the errors even if i did feel up to rereading my post. Hopefully its half-way understandable...

[Mistress Siana]

I don't think Bellatrix was lying. After all, you could WANT to hurt a spider if it helped the students in some way...

But I still can't help thinking about it...I definitely think that this scene between Harry and Bellatrix is a meaningful one. What if Harry won't be able to kill? What would make Dumbledore want to kill somebody? He's powerfull, of course, but...we know that Voldemort's week spot is that he does not possess the power of love...what if DD, in return, doesn't have the power of hate?

[Ferrus]

It woulb be very interesting if DD is incapable of hate...

[Eos]

What if Harry won't be able to kill? What would make Dumbledore want to kill somebody? He's powerfull, of course, but...we know that Voldemort's week spot is that he does not possess the power of love...what if DD, in return, doesn't have the power of hate?

I do think that he is able to kill for several reasons - well, actually two. First of all 'cause Harry has something from Voldemort - as horrible that is. He's a parsle tounge for example. They have these related wands, etc. We do know more then well that Voldie is able to kill - so maybe this "power" came to Harry with his scar.
In another thread - the one with Harry and the unforgivable curse - I already mentioned that I believe that you can only kill by magic in the wizarding world, if you do the killing for the killing and your personal interests - not because you love(ed) somebody and you try to kill 'cause of revenge with this power of love-thing.


I do think that DD has the power to hate. Who doesn't? Everybody hates. Some more, some less. Everybody has a part of everything in him- or herself. Even Voldie loves...power and himself. That's not the love we want in way, but it' a kind of love.

The whole time, the audience wants the ring to be destroyed, because it is such an evil object. Now, even though the ring IS destroyed at the end, Frodo is so changed by this event in his life, both emotionally and physically, that he will never be the same again. Not so much in the movie, but in the book it explains that once he gets back to the Shire, he finds that he cannot live the life that he did before, because it is too painful.

I think that's a very good point!
Is Harry aware what it means to kill somebody?

[Athena Appleton]

Is Harry aware what it means to kill somebody?

hmmm... I think, if he wasn't at the beginning of book 5, he's starting to be now... unfortunately, I think Sirius's death was very very important in Harry learning that lesson... So far, in the wizarding world, Harry has almost come to take advantage of the fact that just about anything can be fixed with magic. This is really the first thing, since he was eleven years old, that neither he nor anyone else can fix with a wave of a wand or a drink of a potion. Sirius's death is final. It's almost as though Harry needed to relearn what death was all about...

Really, the more I think about it, the more I lean towards believing that Bellatrix only said what she did to hurt him more... I can't really explain it, but at the exact moment he wants to hurt her and he can't, she tells him basically that he's not going to be able to hurt her, ever, as long as he is a decent person. But really, think about it... if what she said is true, think about the ramifications in other books...

[Reverie Revenge]

I completely agree with Eos, apart from the Lord of the Rings thing - I don't know this trilogy.
You're right Eos, Voldie loves too, he loves his powers I've never thought about it before. DD said Voldie isn't capable of loving (in conversation between DD & Harry at the end of OoP).
But I think the Dark Lord should have met love already - maybe he just didn't recognise it, maybe he is lying to himself, or sth. but I think this is really obvious: Bella loves him in a romantic way, though far too exagerated. She would do anything for him, wouldn't she???
Maybe she already has, we don't know yet
She is the most loyal servant Voldie ever had
Some of you might say Bella is married but like Sirius said, if you can marry only the pure-bloods you can't be too choosy. Maybe the 2 Black sisters didn't marry for love, just to keep the social status.
Maybe the final battle of Harry and Voldie will be a battle about love (remember DD say, how powerful force love is?). Harry's love for Luna and Voldie's for Bella. I know it sounds far-fetched but it's possible.
Why Harry & Luna? Because Harry met her during the feast and just a look at her was a consolation. She was the only one capable of making Harry feel better! Yes, deffinitelly Luna, not Ginny

I think Harry is capable of unforgivable curses because the prophecy said he'd have all the powers the Dark Lord has (power of killing included) and he would also have ''powers Dark Lord has not'' (I think this must be love - his love for Sirius for example, it saved him in the Ministry, right)?
Just before I said Voldie has love (BElla's) but I don't think that he's ready to admit it because all his philosophy is based on hatred, because he denies love.

On the other hand I think Neville is far to nice to revenge his parents enough. Can you imagine Neville as a mad sadist? I certanly can't. I like Bella as a character but it doesn't mean I aprove of everything she did (torturing innocent people, blindly following Voldie, etc.) But I find Bella fascinating anyway, she is sooooo wild & soooo proud . She will not suffer from Neville's hand, but she will sure not meet the happy end. Maybe Tonks will finish her - Tonks is a very nice girl but an auror too and this would be on professional basis, not personal, like Neville's revenge.
What do you think?