Snape

[Enchanter]

It makes me wonder sometimes if J.K writes things like this that can go either way just so people like us have something to do until she comes out with her next book! Debating the books is almost better than reading them

[Claire]

I just thought of something. It's pretty much off topic, though.

Malfoy didn't tell Snape what he was planning. McGonagall says she sent someone to get Snape when she found out there were Death Eaters there. So, Snape didn't know what was happening apparently. And yet, he somehow knew that Voldemort's orders were to leave Harry there. He says that specifically, the Dark Lord's orders. How did he know what the orders were, if he wasn't in on the plan?

Obviously, it could be because Snape knew that no matter what, Voldemort would want to kill Harry. Or maybe he DID know the whole prophecy, as some have speculated. But it seems like Snape was in on the plans, or something weird was going on.

So, what do you think?

[Mrs. Luca Black]

Snape can't know the whole prophecy, he was kicked out of the Hogs Head midway through it.

I'm sure that Voldemort had mentioned to everyone that he wanted to be the one that killed Harry. Snape was likely just reminding them.

I don't think Snape knew about Draco's plan because we heard him interrogating him during Slughorn's party, I believe, and Draco blocked Snape out of his mind. Draco didn't want Snape to know because I get the feeling that Draco is highly influenced by Auntie Bellatrix who doesn't trust Snape either. I think I'm giving the little brat too much credit with this, but maybe he thought that Snape was telling Dumbledore stuff too and didn't want the whole plan known. Or he just wanted to show that he could do something without anyone's help, which he didn't actually show, the stupid brat.

[Ginny Potter]

Snape can't know the whole prophecy, he was kicked out of the Hogs Head midway through it.

I'm sure that Voldemort had mentioned to everyone that he wanted to be the one that killed Harry. Snape was likely just reminding them.

I don't think Snape knew about Draco's plan because we heard him interrogating him during Slughorn's party, I believe, and Draco blocked Snape out of his mind. Draco didn't want Snape to know because I get the feeling that Draco is highly influenced by Auntie Bellatrix who doesn't trust Snape either. I think I'm giving the little brat too much credit with this, but maybe he thought that Snape was telling Dumbledore stuff too and didn't want the whole plan known. Or he just wanted to show that he could do something without anyone's help, which he didn't actually show, the stupid brat.

I wholeheartedly agree with "stupid brat", and I felt the reason Draco didn't want to share was that he reminded me of Crouch, Jr. So eager to prove himself...so eager to a big deal and not want anyone to steal that glory. It seemed to irk Draco throughout the book that he wasn't getting the notoriety that others were getting from Slughorn, making him (Draco) all the more proud and "wait until you see what I pull off" about his own task. Going back to Voldemort charming the people he wants, he also has a great knack at preying on people's weaknesses: Harry's inclination to play the hero, Draco's arrogance, pride, and need for self-importance, Sirius's recklessness, etc. Draco, to me, was little more than Voldemort's puppet throughout this book...Draco was being punished because of his dad and serving as a punishment to the Malfoys, and he was too arrogant to see it...

Something Dumbledore said about how so many of Voldemort's followers think they're his best friend and know his secrets when really Voldemort has never had friends and has never desired them and would just as soon turn on anyone for his own personal gain...the only time I felt remotely sorry for Draco was when he was in the bathroom...

[Mrs. Luca Black]

the only time I felt remotely sorry for Draco was when he was in the bathroom...

When he was crying? Or bleeding on the floor?

Personally I found both hilarious, but I'm mean spirited when it comes to people like him.

I especially liked him bleeding on the floor because he really deserved that one more than anything else. He had been about to use an Unforgivable Curse on Harry... *grumbles*

[Ginny Potter]

Hmmm, I know who not to make mad.

I felt a little sorry for Draco when he was crying...well, actually, not so much for Draco, but for what Voldemort does...how he just uses people and, in an annoying way, how people refuse to see that due to need for feeling superior (Bellatrix immediately comes to mind, as did Crouch, Jr., and in some ways, Wormtail).

The spell and Draco bleeding didn't sadden me...it shocked me. I thought Harry had murdered someone unknowingly. I really wondered where that would take Harry the rest of the story, having killed someone, even someone as loathsome as Malfoy...

[Mrs. Luca Black]

Yeah, I guess it is kind of sad how Voldemort manipulates people, but I can't feel sorry when he manipulates people like Malfoy who walked up to him with his arm outstretched, ready to be branded.

I knew Malfoy wouldn't die. I wanted him to die, though. Harry has to become a murderer. There's no getting around that if he's going to live.

[Claire]

Snape can't know the whole prophecy, he was kicked out of the Hogs Head midway through it.

That's the weird thing though, isn't it? Would Trelawnly just have woken up for the short amount of time that Snape was kicked out? Because she remembers that part. Did she just go back into prophecy afterwards?

[Mrs. Luca Black]

I've wondered about that as well and I've only been able to come to one conclusion about it. Here it goes:

Okay, so Snape is doing the evil, Death Eater, spying thing and hears the first bit of the prophecy. Then Aberforth, the barman and Dumbledore's brother, catches him sneaking and grabs and accosts him. Snape can't hear the rest of the prophecy because he's being throttled by Aberforth. Aberforth can only throttle him so much before it becomes aggrivated assault, which is about the right amount of time for Trelawney to finish the prophecy. Aberforth then politely knocks on the door to intrude and tell them that the stupid little git had been listening to their conversation. Trelawney has no idea what really happened and now believes Snape was trying to learn from her interview, but Dumbledore knows better.

Now, I don't know if DUmbledore confronted Snape about it or if Snape confessed to Dumbledore. I'd like to know because it'll say a lot about the situation and possibly shed light on the question of Snape's evilness.

Dumbledore told Harry that at the time, end of OotP, he was the only person who knew the whole prophecy. He would have known if Snape had known the whole prophecy. While I think that Dumbledore is still falible, I think he was right that time.

[Nightcrawler]

That's very well thought out Luca. In fact, that's what I'm going with until JKR says otherwise.

Although I'm sure Snape must have heard the "important bits" if he were to report them back to Voldermort.

As for the situation with Draco, I felt a little sorry for him when he was crying. It's the first time ever we've seen Draco drop his stupid bravado act and shown some vulnrability. And I think it's also the first time anyone has valued Myrtle's company. I lost all sympathy for him however, when he tried to perform the unforgivable curse on Harry. If I may be brutally honest, at that point in his life, Draco deserved it when Harry cut him up like that.

Thinking back on it though, I feel like my opinion of Draco has changed the tinyest, tinyest bit. I hate to admit it. Seriously, it's only a tiny bit. Maybe I'll start a thread on it later.

[SunsetG|rl]

I never actually liked draco. always thought of him as an arogant brat as Mrs. Luca Black pointed out. though i can't help it not feeling a bit of mercy for the poor boy. he's just as vulnerable as anyone could be. as any human can be. but maybe he deserves his suffering, he deserves beeing bullied around by LV because he didn't feel the smallest remourse for applying a nasty treatment on anyone else in the school. and don't you find it ironical that draco, the biggest bully in harry's year finds consolation in myrtle, she who has sufferd so much because of other bullies like draco.

anyway the topic is about snape and i wanted to say something about him. i was looking on the hp-lexicon where are stated in two colomns arguments for snape beeing evil and snape beeing good. and i read this argument that i didn't see on the forum before:

Snape (along with McGonagall & Dumbledore) was visible in Barty Crouch Jr.'s Foe-Glass (GF35) [thanks, Gina!]

what do you think about this? but then again we don't know exactly how this kind of objects work. or even if they might be wrong. but i find this an interesting argument, though not sure if that strong or even valid.

[Tanuki]

Though it still falls with my theory that Snape is in it for himself and is waiting for both Voldermort and Dumbledore to die before he makes his own bid for power

[Mrs. Luca Black]

I'm with Tanuki, I think Snape is playing both sides. (Don't I usually argue with Tanuki, too?)

Anyway, I think Snape was visible in the Foe Glass because he was with Dumbledore and McGonagall and was not going to help him. If he helped Barty Jr. then he couldn't begin playing both sides again because it would be apparent that he was just on Voldemort's side. At that time, he was acting like he was loyal to Dumbledore, which might be true, but I don't think it is. Gah, you've all read my thoughts on Snape before so I'll just stop now.

[crystallised_pineapple]

but he could have just not helped DD and kept out of it somehow??

i actually agree with both of you that he could be playing both sides although its partly because it means i don't have to decide whether he's good or bad (which i keep swopping to and from weekly lol)

[Mrs. Luca Black]

but he could have just not helped DD and kept out of it somehow??

I think he needed to seem like he was completely on Dumbledore's side. He's one of the closest people to Dumbledore, so it would have seemed out of place not to accompany him on such an endeavor.

Snape might have also been upset because he had such a good place with Dumbledore that he didn't want to go back to being a spy for both sides. He was comfortable and could have been highly p***d at Crouch for helping restore Voldy.

He specifically told Bellatrix that he didn't want to make waves with Dumbledore because he was the only thing keeping him out of Azkaban and because he was "moderately comfortable." Also, in the conversation that Hagrid overheard, Snape said something about being overworked.

So basically, there are plenty of reasons why Snape appeared in the Foe Glass that don't mean that he's good. He's evil. Case closed. *grins and winks, knowing that it'll never be over even if JKR implicitly said that he was or was not evil*