Draco

[SunsetG|rl]

People belive in God because it is a bit frighteningh knowing that death isn't a whole new adventre, that it all stops the minute you die, and all your life will be gone and swept out just like anything you are and do. That is why I belive in God, (yeah I believe), because I like the ideea of an afterlife. It gives me the comfort that I'm not ephermeral. That at least some part of me (my soul) is immortal. And it also makes me feel safe sometimes.

As for religion... I guess we should all have our own religion. Our own soul religion. Cause I sooo hate the ideea of priests and all that... They are only human so why would that give them some power or so.

And yes, it is defenitlly so hard to say what is good and what is evil. It's our choice to do whatever we want... good or evil for that matter... And that is what makes us who we are... (I just had to say it...)

[Tanuki]

what's your concept tanuki?

Removing the concept of the devil removes the concept of pure evil. It's nothing special, just something I've started wondering about

who can measure evil? who can measure how good an act is?

History, the rest of the world, the price paid. If you remove the concept of evil, then everything is forgivable; and there ARE unforgivable things, no matter how you justify it, the murder of hundreds of innocent people is evil.

who can judge then if a person is entirely evil? no-one knows the whole story, we judge on what we see and like an iceberg we only see one tenth of a person in the present, we can't see their past and the influences that have shaped them. therefore how can we fully understand a person's actions or condemn a person's actions?

A man's aciton dictate how he will be viewed. He can have the best reasons in the world, but doing evil is still doing evil. You can try to excuse it all you want, but in the end, it all boils down to how many people suffer by your actions

but essentially it was flawed from the beginning otherwise you wouldn't have to change the stitching to make it fit.

That's funny, because my religion didn't tailor itself to anyone, but people still follow it. You say that religion makes sweeping overgeneralization, when you make them about religion. What does that say about you? How many actual religions have you studied to know so much about it I must ask?

[thestral]

[quote= "tanuki"]He can have the best reasons in the world, but doing evil is still doing evil. You can try to excuse it all you want, but in the end, it all boils down to how many people suffer by your actions
[/quote]

if a man was responsible for millions of deaths, i wouldn't try to excuse it. yes he did a very evil act, but you misconstrue my point. i'm not trying to excuse evil, because i do believe it exists, my point is simply, that no-one is absolutly evil or absolutly perfect, and that sometimes we shouldn't be so quick to condemn someone as evil (althouugh not in the case of killing millions of people, that is obviously evil)

If you remove the concept of evil, then everything is forgivable; and there ARE unforgivable things

but religion is based is the concept, that we are all sinners and can be forgiven. even the one of the murderers on the cross beside jesus was forgiven and he mudered people, and is that not something that is unforgivable? i thought that was the comfort of religion, that no matter what you do if you are truly sorry and repent what you have done with all your heart that you will be forgiven, no matter what the sin is. well that's what i was taught in my religion.

How many actual religions have you studied to know so much about it I must ask?

and for the record i was a devout christian until about 3 years ago, so yes i do have experience of religion. and the reason i stopped believing was because it just seemed to be one big contradiction. and by me saying that everyone tailors it to fit their own beliefs i mean that every denomination is different, for example catholics believe the virgin mary is a diety and worship her, whereas my religion did not. christian denominations have millions of little loophole beliefs that vary just oh so slightly but just enough so that you can pick and choose what you want to believe.

People belive in God because it is a bit frighteningh knowing that death isn't a whole new adventre, that it all stops the minute you die, and all your life will be gone and swept out just like anything you are and do. That is why I belive in God, (yeah I believe), because I like the ideea of an afterlife. It gives me the comfort that I'm not ephermeral. That at least some part of me (my soul) is immortal. And it also makes me feel safe sometimes.

i know and understand that people derive comfort and security from religion. as people we like to believe that as individuals we are important enough that when we die we will survive in some shape or form. we like to believe that we won't simply disappear when we die. it also makes death a bit less scary. but i just think that it's a comfort crutch, that i don't need and that when i die, i'm dead, i'm dust and not coming back. i'm under no delusions about my mortality. even though i would love to believe that i will see all the people i love in heaven or whatevever. i know i'm only kidding myself. and i'm okay with the fact that when i die, i'm dead. i don't fear death more, in fact i fear death less, knowing i won't be judged and thrown into a fiery lake. i think religion has capitalised on the most enduring of human fears (death) and capitalised on it by using scare tactics of going to hell for all eternity. i really hope i don't offend anyone and i don't mean to but it's just my opinion.

[Tanuki]

but religion is based is the concept, that we are all sinners and can be forgiven. even the one of the murderers on the cross beside jesus was forgiven and he mudered people, and is that not something that is unforgivable? i thought that was the comfort of religion, that no matter what you do if you are truly sorry and repent what you have done with all your heart that you will be forgiven, no matter what the sin is. well that's what i was taught in my religion.

Actually, there is one unforgivable sin and that is to work against god's people and attack them specifically, knowing they were god's people. Hitler actually did this, this is why I use him as an example most often. He wasn't making a mistake, his actions were deliberate

christian denominations have millions of little loophole beliefs that vary just oh so slightly but just enough so that you can pick and choose what you want to believe.

Christianity is one thing that has been corrupted over years. When it was new, it was closer to my religion (kinda bare bones on traditions and whatnot) but over tiem exposure to pagan religions made it adapt and change, or at least it got corrupted. Much of the world's chrisitan holidays are because of this. (Jesus was born nowhere near december 25th/ What does a rabbit [symbol of fertility] have to do with Jesus's resurrection/ Halloween is actually a pagan festival to appease the dead)

I did a lot of research

as individuals we are important enough that when we die we will survive in some shape or form

Um, my religion doesn't. We believe that when you die, that's it. We have hope in a physical ressurection, but no one survives as a spirit after death. Hell doesn't exist, any reference to eternal fire is gehenna, which is a garbage incinerator outside of an ancient city, The idea of which means that a person who is sent to gehenna is destroyed for all of eternity

We also believe only 144000 people go to heaven, and their job is to act as judges over the rest of mankind

[SunsetG|rl]

Much of the world's chrisitan holidays are because of this. (Jesus was born nowhere near december 25th/ What does a rabbit [symbol of fertility] have to do with Jesus's resurrection/ Halloween is actually a pagan festival to appease the dead)

But didn't all curent religions form from others and so on? It was ages of people's thought that made religion what it is today. Probably because we just need it in whatever shape. We seek hiden signs in everything and find a symbol for every thing. Religion it's just man kind's way of explainig this big fat world. Now we have science but it hasn't been able to offer yet trully satisfactory answers. So most of us take the easy way: "oh there is that all powerfull being that made us and everything, and It kinda takes care of us and so on". Though I'm not saying it quite easy to believe this, but it gets easier believing it. (Hope I'm not confusing. And this is just my oppinion )

And as far as the concept of hell and punishment is concerned, I think it started of as a way to control the large group of people in a comunity. Like, don't do that, because "that all mighty powerfull creature" sees you, and he will punish. Probably in the old old days, some people bought it. Now we have laws and police men and jails. But there are many who aren't caught. The system is not that effective. And many, just like Hitler can do enough evil.

[Tanuki]

But didn't all curent religions form from others and so on? It was ages of people's thought that made religion what it is today. Probably because we just need it in whatever shape. We seek hiden signs in everything and find a symbol for every thing. Religion it's just man kind's way of explainig this big fat world. Now we have science but it hasn't been able to offer yet trully satisfactory answers. So most of us take the easy way: "oh there is that all powerfull being that made us and everything, and It kinda takes care of us and so on". Though I'm not saying it quite easy to believe this, but it gets easier believing it. (Hope I'm not confusing. And this is just my oppinion )

Thank you for being completely insulting to the concept of faith. Of course, I was takingthe easy way out, even though it takes a lot of hard work for me to be a follower of god. That was really a stupid thing to say, and rude. It's not easier to believe in god, since science looks down on religion often. People assume that science and religion have nothing in common, even though the very opposite is true often enough. and as for the origional christianity. It may have been rooted in judaism, but the only thing it has in common is the history of the world. and even then. Christianity cast off many of the additions of philosophy and other things added to judaism over time that were not part of the origional concepts. Over time it added pointless concepts of its own that are only now being disproven through a sincere exploration of history

[SunsetG|rl]

Sorry I never meant to insult anyone. It was just my oppinion. I said it. And now you have insulted me by saying My oppinion is stupid. It's just how I see things and trust me I didn't want to insult anything or anyone. Obviously you didn't get my point. I was being confusing. That's my fault I guess. I never had a way with words.
And as ar as I know, Science has never looked down on anythig. It just tries to find the truth about things.

[Snow_Crystal]

Anyway...moving back to Draco and sorry if this has been mentioned somewhere before in this thread, I think I read somewhere on here that someone had noticed a resemblance of characters between Regulas and Draco.

Anyone else think there's a resemblance?

[Nightcrawler]

This is a very interesting discussion.

Anyone else think there's a resemblance? [between Draco and Regulus]

I think there is deffinetly some resemblance, in the fact that they both (probably) worked for Voldermort, and they both bit off more than they could chew.

The difficult thing regarding Regulus is that we know so very little about him. Unlike Draco, Regulus probably didn't have anyone to bail him out when the going got tough.

The possibility of Regulus being R.A.B. is a very interesting one. It suggests that Regulus realized what side he was really on, and attemted to make ammends by destroying one of Voldermorts horcruxes -even though he knew he would be killed as a result. Would Draco ever do the same thing? Who knows.

Christianity is one thing that has been corrupted over years.

Agreed. Totally. That's where human nature comes into play. Not just Christianity either; but almost any idea/gesture/action you can think of can and will be adapted/corrupted be people with a different agenda. It's a sad, sad fact that there are a lot of people in the world who care only about themselves. If perverting something beatiful will make them feel better; chances are they won't think twice about doing it.

Using extreme examples, let's compare the Salvation Army with, say, Fred Phelps. Both claim to be working on behalf of God. The SA clothes and feeds the homeless. Phelps proffits from selling obscene T-shirts and interupts the funerals of people he thinks "went to hell".

I often wonder about human nature. I've had people I grew up with turn against me the moment it suited them. I've had complete strangers go out of thier way to help me out in situations where they would have absolutly nothing to gain but my gratitude.

Why do we do the things we do? I have no idea. Each case is unique and can depend on a million different factors. That's why I don't believe anybody is absolutly good or evil. The way I've written that just makes for a pretty poor argument but hey, it's just my opinion. Besides, I'm tired.

[thestral]

out of interest tanuki, what is your religion? and you said christianity had been corrupted by exposure to pagan religions. well uhhhh, christianity stole most of it's symbols and ideas from pagan religions. pagan religions were there first and then as christianity gained momentum, it eventually decimated the pagans, whilst taking most of it's symbology with it. it's really quite interesting. pagan religions are not new and it's not modern day 'exposure' corrupting christianity, cos it was always there and to some extent it was christianity that corrupted and destroyed the pagan way of life. (of course pagans are 'evil')

That was really a stupid thing to say, and rude

hem, hem. you know this is a discussion, everyone puts forward their views and everyone respects other's people's views. all sunset G|rl was doing was expressing her opinion which is as valid as yours. so please refrain from being so rude. no-one is trying to insult anyone here. you can't call someone stupid cos you don't like what they say. although people do tend to get touchy about religion. as some-one who doesn't believe in god, actually sometimes it is alot harder to not believe. i've wanted to believe so many times. it's so tempting for me to just give 'control' and responsibiltiy of my life over to someone who will look over me. it's easy to believe because it's such a wonderful thing to imagine.

i'm NOT insulting your level of faith or saying you're taking the easy way out. but it's how i've come to view religion. so kindly do not call me stupid or attack me for some percieved attack on your faith. also you frequently find yourself apologising to people who do believe in god for not believeing. i swear it's a social pariah to say out loud you don't believe in god. somehow by saying 'i don't believe in god' you've insulted them. people get very offended by that sentence. you always have to walk on eggshells to go out of your way to be respectful towards their religious beliefs, whilst they decimate and trample your beliefs and yet you still feel like you can't stand up for your beliefs, cos by explaining your reasons for not believing in god, or arguing why you don't believe, people get very offended. if you believe in any religion islam, judaism, christianity, whatever. people always are sensitive to your beliefs. but whan you have no religion, people are blatently rude in trying to shove their religion down your throat or pat you on the arm and tell you that one day you'll 'see the light' (that makes me sooo angry ). anyway, i digress. none of this is directed at you tanuki, it's just that sometimes you could be a little more tactful and less quick to call people stupid. after all you wouldn't like it if sunset G|rl called you stupid.

anyway, i'm tired of discussing religion. it goes in circles, i've talked about it so much throughout my life and defended my lack of belief so many times i can't be bothered to talk about it anymore. it's a fruitless pursuit. if someone believes in god, it doesn't matter what you say. that is the nature of faith. they believe one thing, you believe another.

soooo back to draco. can't even remeber the original topic....

[Tanuki]

out of interest tanuki, what is your religion? and you said christianity had been corrupted by exposure to pagan religions. well uhhhh, christianity stole most of it's symbols and ideas from pagan religions. pagan religions were there first and then as christianity gained momentum, it eventually decimated the pagans, whilst taking most of it's symbology with it.

I'm a Jehovah's Witness, an organization that works to worship god free from the symbolism christianity tacked on from paganism, and to restore parts of the bible removed by christianity and judaism alike

hem, hem. you know this is a discussion, everyone puts forward their views and everyone respects other's people's views. all sunset G|rl was doing was expressing her opinion which is as valid as yours. so please refrain from being so rude.

She said religion was an easy answer; a cop out if you will. It's saying we can't be bothered to look for the truth. I find that insulting, it's like saying I'm an idiot

it's so tempting for me to just give 'control' and responsibiltiy of my life over to someone who will look over me.

Religion is not about giving control over your life to god. It's about wanting to get to know and love god and then pleasing him because you love and know him. If you look at religion as an easy answer, you're in it for the wrong reasons.

somehow by saying 'i don't believe in god' you've insulted them. people get very offended by that sentence

It's not, not believing in god that insults people. It's the reasons you use. How do you think someone will react when you tell them their belief is the easy answer or that there is no evidence of god? It's an insulting comment, and the fact is, being a Jehovah's Witness means being under attack most of the time. It makes me defensive.

that sometimes you could be a little more tactful and less quick to call people stupid.

If I were tactful, I wouldn't be me. My rudeness is my weapon, and what qualifies me as a mad dog

[thestral]

you can be assertive and be yourself without hurting other people's feelings. of course you wouldn't be you if you didn't have your tanacity. i wouldn't be me if i didn't have my tenacity and temper ( i have anger problems.... ) but it doesn't always have to be quite so prominent. instead of using rudeness as a weapon, why don't you try being civil and tactful? other people will respect you and your views much more, if you're not being rude to them. it makes others much more willing to listen to your point of view if you aren't being rude. also sometimes it's nice to be nice

[Person1]

I believe this is not the place nor the thread to talk about this.......and no matter what religion you are, it really shouldn't matter on a forum, let people belive as they wish, but if you wish to dicuss this, find some religion forum site or something....

[SunsetG|rl]

My rudeness is my weapon, and what qualifies me as a mad dog

Then you should expect others to be just as rude ase you. Or even worse. You shouldn't let out what you can't take in.

[Tanuki]

...If this your first time in the forum? Have you just met me? I thrive on fights. the more adament, the better. If the other person gets rude, I enjoy it more