Pettigrew's Debt

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Right, well on JKR's website the recent poll seems very clear in saying that the Secret kept by a Secret-Keeper remains at the same status if the Secret-Keeper dies.

Now if Harry intends to go to Godric's Hollow... a village - how precisely will he be able to see whether the house (or where the house was) is there, if he doesn't know the place?

Will he just be able to remember, because he has been in the house before?

Will the secret be void, now that it was broken almost 16 years ago? Or does the breaking of the charm only affect it for the one it's told to - Voldemort.

This is the case, because otherwise once the location of the House Of Black had been shown to someone, the charm would have been broken for all otherwise.

The way I see it, if Harry cannot find the ruins naturally, the only way to access them would be through Pettigrew.

If he intends to see the ruins at all that is... and not just check out the village.

[Snow_Crystal]

This is a very good point!!!!!!!!!!!

Also - How on earth did Hagrid go and collect Harry from the house if he hadn't been told by the secret keeper????? I remember reading somewhere that the secret could only be divulged by the keeper even after their death which is why DD wrote it down - in case something happened to him.

Does that mean that after that night Wormtail had to tell people what had happened? etc Was he the other person that was there????

In terms of Harry going there - maybe Wormtail does have to tell Harry!! You might be onto something here!!!

Good thinking Phoenix!!!!

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

I like it, not only because I like the theory - but because I could really see it fitting into the story neatly, what-with Pettigrew's debt and everything.

Maybe Dumbledore knew about it? I wouldn't be surprised - those words he said at the end of POA about debts being handy... I always thought he knew how it would probably be repaid.


But Hagrid... I have no idea of a solution to that.

And what of Sirius - how could he just forget where the house was when he swapped the secret-keeping?

If we can explain that... about Sirius - we can explain very easily about Hagrid I think.

REMEMBER:

Hagrid borrowed Sirius' bike on that night. He could have just asked Sirius where the house was!

So then, we need to ask... what happens when you change secret-keepers - do they, Sirius, forget?

OR MAYBE:

Sirius was never their Secret-Keeper - him and Pettigrew swapped before the actual charm was cast.

[Chimera]

Yeah, they swapped before it was cast. Quote is something like "James wanted to use me, but I convinced him to use Peter". Presumably Peter wrote out a bunch of those "the location of..." slips for the order beforehand, to avoid looking suspicious.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

The Hagrid problem is wide open, then.

[Chimera]

You recall the parchment Moody gave Harry for Grimmauld Place? Methinks Hagrid had one for Godric's Hollow.

Here's a question, it's probably been mentioned but I can't remember: Who cast the fidelius charm? Does the charm die with the caster? If it was Dumbledore, James, Lily or Sirius then maybe there is no fidelius charm at work in Godric's Hollow.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

I'm thinking James cast the spell.

But surely the charm doesn't die with the caster? Because it's meant to protect Lily and Harry - the House itself - not just him.

[Chimera]

Some do, we know the body-bind curse does.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

That's true...

Here's the problem I have with it:

The caster of the Fidelius Charm doesn't necessarily have to be protecting himself... - so it just seems to be a really poor defense for something if the caster wasn't protected too.

I don't know..

[SunsetG|rl]

Wasn't Lily the very good one at charms? Don't you think it could have been her?

[Snow_Crystal]

You recall the parchment Moody gave Harry for Grimmauld Place? Methinks Hagrid had one for Godric's Hollow.

Here's a question, it's probably been mentioned but I can't remember: Who cast the fidelius charm? Does the charm die with the caster? If it was Dumbledore, James, Lily or Sirius then maybe there is no fidelius charm at work in Godric's Hollow.

I'm thinking James cast the spell.

But surely the charm doesn't die with the caster? Because it's meant to protect Lily and Harry - the House itself - not just him.

Gosh so much to comment on!!! I never thought of a parchment for Lily and James, that's a thought, but it would still require Wormtail to give that piece of paper to someone. Remember nobody knew they had switched being secret-keepers until PoA revealed all. So how Hagrid/DD knew is beyond me.

In terms of the parchment for Grimmauld Place, DD wrote it in case something happened to him. In that case it didn't die with the caster as DD was prepared enough to write it down. If they haven't written it down then perhaps it is broken.

My next question though is if you have a secret keeper that keeps the location secret, if people are at that location, are they not allowed to divulge the secret - I am sure they are not allowed to do this which means even James and Lily could not have written it down for anyone either.

Has JKR shot herself in the foot again on this - I think she might have.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

I think the whole Fidelius Charm is rather dodgy, and best left alone!

[Chimera]

James and probably Sirius would have been with Peter when he was made secret keeper, he could've written it down then. He would have to maintain his cover until he got back to Voldemort, and refusing to give James the means to inform Dumbledore of his whereabouts would've looked suspicious.

Here's a thought... The Fidelius charm doesn't affect the memory, does it? It just stops the uninformed from finding the secret place, and the informed from blabbing. If someone knew all the necessary details before the charm was cast then they'd probably still be able to find the secret afterwards.

Hagrid would've known for sure, next to Dumbledore he's the least likely to go over to the dark side out of anyone in the order. Mostly this is out of loyalty to Dumbledore, but also he's a simple guy with simple pleasures and a simple lifestyle, that much power wouldn't hold any temptation for Hagrid as he's pretty much happy as he is and very set in his ways.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

Hagrid would've known for sure, next to Dumbledore he's the least likely to go over to the dark side out of anyone in the order. Mostly this is out of loyalty to Dumbledore, but also he's a simple guy with simple pleasures and a simple lifestyle, that much power wouldn't hold any temptation for Hagrid as he's pretty much happy as he is and very set in his ways.

Then what's the point of the Fidelius Charm, if it doesn't affect everyone except the Secret Keeper and the Casters?

Voldemort could just break someone that knows naturally, if it didn't affect them.

[Chimera]

I didn't say it didn't affect them, just that it has no effect on the memory, they still wouldn't be able to blab. A few key people would've known about the hideout before the charm was cast, so they'd still be in the know afterwards.