Just finished - am in shock

[thestral]

both of the main deaths have been so strange with so many question marks hanging over them. sirius's death was bizarre cos of the whole veil thing and you weren't sure if he was dead or not and the mirror and stuff. just lots of little things that made his death seem way off. and DD's death is the same, so many little details that throw you off and make it seem strange, the freezing of harry, the inexplicable pleading, why snape didn't do more than shield himself from harry's curses. this is getting to be a habit with JK. *sigh*. we'll never know, but the speculation could go on forever.

[Imelyen]

The way snape killed Dumbledore would be considered a cowardly act...unless he and dumbledore had already planned for it if the situation ever arose. And as for Snape's dad beating his mother....she was a witch for crying out loud...if she wanted to stop him she could have (even though all it says is he was yelling at her...never mentioned hitting).

One thing i was wondering....Dumbledore said the spy only heard part of the prophecy, but if Trelawny remembered snape being forced into the room by the barman, then she was done with her little trance thing, and snape had heard the entire thing...And, i wonder who's going to get Dumbledore's pensieve

[thestral]

i would say harry will get the pensieve. he needs it to defeat VD. it's so valuable, that i doubt he would leave it to anyone else. also who else could need it more?

why do you hang on so firmly to your conviction that snape is good? he just killed DD!!! harry been saying the truth the whole way through the series. i think that snape is bad, pure and simple. he's shown his true colours. why can't people accept his is bad? is it a sign of the human condition that even when presented with the worst side of a person, we still search for the good?

[Imelyen]

Harry is never right though! And they way Dumbledore responded when Harry said snape was a bad guy in this book was much different then how his typical response. In this book Dumbledore responded almost in anger that he was tired of people questioning him. and that is extremely un-dumbledore-ish. And I'm not looking for the best in Snape, it's just that there are so many signs still saying that he is a good guy.

1. The argument he had with Dumbledore when he said he didn't want to do "it" could have easily been refering to that time

2. The lack of his usual gloat when he has triumphed over some one.

3. His response to Harry calling him a coward for killing Dumbledore (Harry called Snape a coward twice, once for fleeing and once for killing dumbledore, the first time he responded in a rather nonchalant manner)

4. The fact that he was telling Harry the only way he could possibly win a duel.

Strike those out, and i will be convinced that Snape is bad (that is, until I re-read the book and find more things)

[thestral]

no, the voices get inside my head again and then i get confused!!! i really really want to believe that snape is still good imelyn, but i think it's just an emnotional reaction. i never realised how much i liked him before. but i'm trying to be rational. but it's bugging me. but i accept your points and i'm going to re-read as soon as my bro's finished with it and then i'll try and make up my mind for good. but bu***r, this is a real curveball.

[Imelyen]

Haha I know what you mean...I'm just trying to digest it all before i start reading it again. (that, and trying to steel myself against the 400 pages of romance that I dont enjoy so much )

[thestral]

well i'm hopeless romantic at heart, so i'm not complaining!!!

[menotyoo]

I am going to agree with all of Imelyen's 4 points. Not only that Snape was actively teaching Harry whilst fighting him, but also that he never attacked. Furthermore, he did not know anyone knew what he'd done on DD's side, so upon learning that Harry knew, why not either kill him or capture him - both he could have done with EASE. If LV wants Harry and Snape wants to please LV, why not bring him Harry?
Also, the whole Unbreakable Vow w/ Narcissa could mean 2 things. One, that it was LV's wish or 2 that it was DD's wish that Snape agree to help. He obviously knew the plan, and if it was option 1, then LV had also told him to help Draco, because he's an evil genius and would have suspected Narcissa to run for help. If it was option 2, then he would have told DD the plan for Draco to kill him as soon as he heard it, thus DD must have told him to maintain his cover at ALL costs. A spy is too insrumental to TOTP's success.

My final clue was: the hand and Defence Against the Dark Arts. Snape said that DD's hand was injured as a result of slow reflexes, but he knew full well that DD had not been in a fight, because he had saved him, and no doubt could guess what had caused the injuries. The fact that he did not reveal that DD was destroying Horcruxes is also proof of his true loyalties. Next, DD is old, trusting, but NOT stupid. He trusts Snape but will not let him near Dark Arts, so therefore, we see his caution. Why throw this away? Was he really THAT desparate for a teacher. I doubt it. This is a part of one large scheme. I mean, he knew all of Draco's actions around school, he may have even known about the Vanishing Cabinet. But he certainly knew all that Snape knew.

Yes, Snape is a slimy weasel, and I know he's dug himself a big hole. Somehow, though, his innocence will be proven in 7. Either by DD's will being read by Harry, or by helping to defeat LV.
Sorry for the long post, but I think I have made a case for Snape, now feel free to argue!

[Chesirae]

I'm sorry. At this point I really don't care whether Snape is still good or bad. He's been a perfect prat to Harry, and he killed Dumbledore.
Frankly, if I were Harry, I'd want to kill him just for that, even if he was doing what DD told him. Even if he was good.
Later, I'd forgive him. But currently? He has made no case for his innocence. Not in his actions, anyway. All he's been is a bitter, jealous, shriveled up, hateful old man. Have we ever seen him be remotely kind to anyone? Where it didn't gain him anything? No. He deserves whatever Harry is wanting to do to him right now.

[Anna Black]

I do believe that it is possible for Snape to be redeemed. He and Harry will never like each other, especially now, but that is insignificant to the fight against Voldemort.

Also, it is not hard for me to imagine that Dumbledore knew of Draco's plot. Snape could have possibly made the unbreakable vow with DDs knowledge. I know that Dumbledore would have given his life if he thought it was necessary to the war against LV. He is selfless to a fault. He would definitely sacrifice his life to help defeat LV.

Of course, all any of us can do is speculate. We won't find out for sure for another 2 years probably.

[DumbledoreistheMaster]

I don't necessarily think that by saying Dumbledore was injured because of slow reflexes means he was in a fight I mean at the end when DD is talking to the death eaters they ask "what happened to you then, Dumby?"
DD says "Oh weaker resistance, slower reflexes"

Dumbledore knows for sure too that he hasn't been in a fight but still blames part of his injuries on slow reflexes.

[Imelyen]

During the last part of the unbreakable vow snape made a twitching movement with his hand, most likely he was going to break the connection and refuse to do the last part but thought better of it. If he knew the plan, he knew that by making the vow he would have to kill dumbledore or die himself. If he were truly on Voldemort's side then why would he want to withdraw his hand, unless he figured dumbledore would figure something out......

[Anna Black]

I couldn't have said it better myself, Imelyen. Snape is a jerk, but he definitely showed signs of regret with the vow. And, he tried to not hurt harry at the end when Harry was attacking him. He said that Voldemort wanted him for himself, but that doesn't men Snape couldn't have zapped Harry with Cruciatus or something, since he dislikes Harry so much. I think Snape's heart is not with the death eaters. Even though he is a jerk.

[Chesirae]

I still don't care if Snape showed signs of regret. Besides Harry, he killed the greatest force of good against Voldemort. And the one with the most power, including Harry. Any cover was worth blowing to keep Dumblydor alive.
There are times where you don't listen to even the greatest of commanders. And this was one of them. Now that Dumbledore is dead, do you really think Voldemort isn't going to attack the school? Dumbledore may have ordered Snape to kill him if it came to it, but Snape was stupid enough to listen.

[darkcloak]

I still don't care if Snape showed signs of regret. Besides Harry, he killed the greatest force of good against Voldemort. And the one with the most power, including Harry. Any cover was worth blowing to keep Dumblydor alive.
There are times where you don't listen to even the greatest of commanders. And this was one of them. Now that Dumbledore is dead, do you really think Voldemort isn't going to attack the school? Dumbledore may have ordered Snape to kill him if it came to it, but Snape was stupid enough to listen.

But Dumbledore cannot kill Voldemort according to the prophecy. One of the main reason that the DD didn't want Voldermort to get his hands on the prophecy was that if he had then he would no longer "fear" DD at all. Harry is the one that must kill Voldemort therefore he froze him out of harm's way on the tower.

Snape followed DD orders, just as Harry did when he poisoned him to get at the locket. The greater good was always more important to Dumbledore.

Also, I don't think Dumbledore would plead for his life. I think that him and Snape where talking using their minds. Snape's disgust at what he had to do etched onto this face.