The end justifies the means???

[Mistress Siana]

Something that made me think was the mentioning of Regulus Black, Sirius's brother, in OotP. He was into the dark arts, joined the DEs, but then tried to back out because he panicked about what was asked of him.
Voldemort had him killed by a DE because Regulus wasn't important enough to be killed be the Lord himself.

Snape, however, seems important enough. If the thing Voldie said about the DE 'he has lost forever' at the end of GoF refers to Snape, which is most likely, he seems to want to kill him himself. Otherwise, he could have ordered Lucius or one of the other DEs, possibly even Crouch jr. to do so. Also, Snape's always been presented in one league with the Lestranges, Avery etc, and from what he told Fudge about the dark mark, we know he had direct contact with Voldemort. Therefore, his position in Voldemort's ranks must have been quite a high ranking one, at least more than that of just a bystander.

So now, he was a spy for DD. But that means that, not to be discovered, he must have willingly done everything that was being asked of him, things even the son of a family of dark wizards was shocked to see.
This certainly includes murder and torture of innocent people. So now I wonder what kind of crimes Dumbledore tolerated for the sake of getting information? Who decided how far Snape would go and how far exactly that would that be?

[Mint]

U...r...right!!!!! WHy didnt I see this before? That sooo makes sence!!!

Well, let see.....Snape, for some reasons, doesn't have family. Not wife and kids - I mean Fathers, Sister and so on.... ANd I know that Harry doesn't have anyone either, and probably many others dont have anyone too. But.....

But isn't it possible that Snape did have cousins and other relatives? Could it be possible that he killed them or brought them to Voldemort?

Also, may be ...Snape did not kill anyone directly. He is smart, very smart I think and may be he was like a strategist. Like he would make plans - Voldemort of course makes the most important decisions, but perhaps he would just tell Snape the goal sometimes, and Snape would find how to reach it. ANd tell others who to kill and so on.

I have a question - was Tom Riddle 1 generation older then Snape/James/So.on ? (i thought may be they have a longer history of working together then many other DEs..may be Snape was one of his earlier followers?)

[highsorcerer]

I've studied enough psychology to know exactly why Dumbledore acts like he does. Dumbledore knows exactly what he is doing, and is aware of the choices he makes. While troubling, any commander knows there is such as thing as acceptable losses. Ron knew this in SS/PS where he took himself out in order to win the chess game. Dumbledore knows this as well. Every member of the OotP is willing to fight and die, or go to Azkaban (like Sturgis), realizing their death or imprisionment is an acceptable loss in the fight for the greater good. Blowing Snapes cover as a spy is harder to judge; some innocent deaths may be acceptable losses if that's the price of keeping Snape as the inner circle spy. The only person who is NOT an acceptable loss is Harry Potter. Simply put, Harry is the key to ultimately destroying Lord Voldemort.

[Mint]

Oh, i was actually thinking more of what Snape did "before" he changed his mind and became a spy.

But wait, did he join Voldemort as a spy, or did he become a spy later on?

But yes, those are great points highsorcerer. I imagine Voldemort requested Snape to kill Potter many many times, but I think everytime Snape has to tell him that "Im sorry, but DD is looking over him just too much for me to step in".

Also, May be thats the reason why DD doesnt let Snape have the position of DADA teacher? Because he knows that in that case Voldemort will ask Snape to kill Potter as an "accident"?

[gecko]

Also, May be thats the reason why DD doesnt let Snape have the position of DADA teacher? Because he knows that in that case Voldemort will ask Snape to kill Potter as an "accident"?

But why would Voldemort ask Snape to do that, when he knows that Snape is the who 'has left him forever'?
Even if he would ask it, an accident in potions could happen just as easily!
Didn't Snape threaten Harry with something once? Can't remember it clearly...

[Mint]

hmmm, u r right I believe he did...... Lol, and I thought I figured it out thanks gecko

But if Snape is not on the speaking terms with Voldie - how does he get the info? Is he that popular that some DE willingly give it to him?

[gecko]

I've no idea!
That's like the big mystery with Snape, how does he get his info when Voldemort knows he turned spy on him and why has no DE or Voldemort tried to kill him yet.

Maybe Voldemort isn't talking about Snape when he's talking about the one who left him forever? But who else could it be..

[Mint]

....yeah!!! I mean ...it can not just be a random new character, it has to be someone we know.....I bet we gonna have some twist in the next 2 books!!!!

Its probably Dumbledore!!!

hehe, nevermind... But it does really seem like he is refering to Snape! I still think its Snape he is talking about.

[Gower]

It does seem like it was Snape he was talking about but with JK anything is possible! Maybe Snape gets his information by using legimens on one of the death eaters and then using a memory charm on them? Or maybe one of the death eaters is a spy for the side of good and Snape just has to ask him/her.

[pinky p]

or he could be using polyjuice or whatever its called... that would still be dangerous though he wouldn't be being hisself

[Mistress Siana]

@highsorcerer
Of course, waht you say makes perfect sense, but thinking of victims among innocents (how did they call that? Collateral damage?) in such a rational wy tells us somethings about Dumbledore's personality. It'a like a stain on his white jacket...

That's like the big mystery with Snape, how does he get his info when Voldemort knows he turned spy on him and why has no DE or Voldemort tried to kill him yet.

I think Voldie wants to keep the honor of punishing a traitor for himself. If the remark at the end of GoF refers to Snape, he made sure that his DEs don't exactly know who's meant. And maybe he's just been too busy trying to kill Potter to care about Snape...
But honestly, I can't help believing there's more to the whole thing...

[Gower]

I'm not too sure about this collateral damage business. I don't think its right to sacrifice other people to your cause. Self sacrifice is ok because you have made the decision but allowing snape to torture innocent victims would be like making their decisions for them and I don't think that sounds right.

[gecko]

I agree that just doesn't sound like the friendly Dumbledore we have come to know.

I think I've posted something a few months ago about that remark of Voldy with the death eather who was lost forever.. I'll try and search for it soon~ish!

[Violet]

I dont see that if voldermort knows that snape is the guy that he has "lost forever" that he would let him know anything about his plans etc.
so i do think that that there must be someone else that coldermort htinks he has lost forever.
Has is it ever actually been said anywhere that snape is spying for dumbledore? i mean i know that it was suggested at at the end of book 4, but i dont recall it actually being mentioned in book 5.

[Mistress Siana]

That's the point!! We don't know what exactly Snape's task is, most people just assume he's gone back to spy. But LV MUST know about Snape's true identity from the way he treated Quirrel.