A death in HBP

[carsten]

Off Topic

Oh Carsten how can I ever thank you?

How about a barbecue?

However, whenever I push the quote button, it either quotes the entire post or if I block out what I want quoted, shows up in my message , well, not looking like what you just quoted from my former post....

Simply edit/cut starting with the full message. Whatever is between quote and /quote appears in the nice box. You can get a full explanation by clicking on BBcode in the lower left of the compose window.

On Topic

Define "DD leave..." We may not be on different sides here.

...same side of the barbecue
Leaving means, somebody is not there anymore. In DD's case I think he will die. As Tanuki stated, children can take it. Grimm's tales are much worse. I would be disappointed, if he suffered a fate like the Longbottoms. We had this already. Harry needs to stand alone. And JKR needs climaxes for books 6+7.

Here is a little poem, that is with me for a long time and fits somehow:
Dare to be a hero
Dare to stand alone
Dare to have a purpose
Dare to make it known

[Just Mom]

Carsten, I'm trying but I can't make it work yet... Really love barbecue though! (it's a southern institution you know.)

Now Tanuki, really, "Rev Mom thinks so little of children..." was unkind and unnecessary since I have three with another on the way. Besides that, you seem to list everything as either/or and my point all along has been that there's plenty of things going on between those two extremes.

I've never said, "children can't handle it." I see an enormous amount of wisdom in my own children, ages 8,6 and 3 that far exceeds my own. I also see the benefit of children being allowed to be children, and not have to grow up too fast. That's part of what caring parents do. We don't sugar coat stuff as it comes, but we also don't throw our kids into situations blithely for the sole purpose of educating them about the evils of the world. They're going to get that soon enough.

"Touching on" a subject and just laying it out there in all it's gory detail are two entirely different issues. I do not, nor have I ever equated DD dying with wholesale slaughter. Death is a part of the life process. We can't shelter children from death and I haven't sheltered mine from it in real life. It's also not generally "the end," but a doorway to life somewhere else. Everyone in the OotP dying however, everyone being killed in crude, horrible ways leaving only Harry and LV (and LV's legions) to fight until one is victorious (presumably Harry) is not what I believe will happen. And that point I will defend from a variety of positions. [/quote]

[Just Mom]

Sorry for the double-post, but Carsten you're little poem is actually a little Sunday School song in another form known as "Dare to be a Daniel." (aka Daniel in the Lions Den.) Same words though...minus the hero part. Does anyone know that Daniel was probably about 70 years old when he was thrown into the lion's den? Not a very nice thank you for all his years of service to various kings and their idiot sons.

[Hagger 9003]

im still too stubborn to give in

10 to 1 on DD surviving in some way or form by the end of book 6.

look, how is the OotP going to survive? its the mainstay of the resistance against LV. it works in secret, and does incredibly well. without it, LV could pretty much walk over everyone. DD isnt only the only person who LV fears, he's the main person who doesnt fear LV. if he dies, everyone will be petrified. most of the common witches and wizards will think that LV has finally won, and will give up. the rest of the OotP will probably have a last stand, but that is it. you cant make an entire book out of that, and you would have to if DD dies in book 6.

anyway, harry has been fighting on his own since his first year, and winning. DD doesnt have to die for that. he beat quirrel, banished 100 dementors, escaped LV and all the living death eaters, escaped LV and death eaters again, and killed a basilisk with the help of an old hat. DD doesnt need to die for harry to be on his own. DD is still a distant influence on harry, and harry doesnt kno him much. while DD dying would affect lots of people drastically, harry really knos that DD is human and old. his death wouldnt affect harry that much, so he wouldnt go on a rampage, or go beserk

however, LV would. the entire of book 7 cant be LV going on a ramgpage, now that harry has lost his protection and the rest of the wizarding world lost their leader. LV would search out harry instantly, and remove the only threat to his existence. actually, i am beginning to convince myself that DD will die near the end of book 7. wow, the wonders of writing as your thinking

basically, DD will not die in book 6.

p.s. i wish i could barbecue. i used to in the summer in england, where i used to live. it was amazing, as we would stay out until it was dark, and we could see bats flying over the garden. it was brilliant. plus, the food is delicious!

[Tanuki]

Now Tanuki, really, "Rev Mom thinks so little of children..." was unkind and unnecessary since I have three with another on the way.

I've never said, "children can't handle it." I see an enormous amount of wisdom in my own children, ages 8,6 and 3 that far exceeds my own. I also see the benefit of children being allowed to be children, and not have to grow up too fast. That's part of what caring parents do. We don't sugar coat stuff as it comes, but we also don't throw our kids into situations blithely for the sole purpose of educating them about the evils of the world. They're going to get that soon enough.

"Touching on" a subject and just laying it out there in all it's gory detail are two entirely different issues. I do not, nor have I ever equated DD dying with wholesale slaughter. Death is a part of the life process. We can't shelter children from death and I haven't sheltered mine from it in real life. It's also not generally "the end," but a doorway to life somewhere else. Everyone in the OotP dying however, everyone being killed in crude, horrible ways leaving only Harry and LV (and LV's legions) to fight until one is victorious (presumably Harry) is not what I believe will happen. And that point I will defend from a variety of positions.

[/quote]


I was sighing more than anything else. Sorry if you found it very insulting. Sometimes you just have to let things out when in an argument. I can at least tell you it's okay for you to tell me exactly what you think of me. I've been called a bigot by a bunch of militant lesbians, after that, nothing can really bother me.

I can respect you're opinion on the end, but I don't think it's going to be Harry Versus LV and his legions. I think it's just going to be Mano a mano with no interference. This way, no matter the outcome, Harry won fair and square. Harry fighting Voldermort with other people around would be quite an empty victory since it was not a fair fight.

However, in OotP, we saw how powerful DD was against everyone else, even against Voldy. If he were still around, it would end up with a fight like DD beating Voldy down and then Harry just picking off the last little bits.

Also, since when has JKR ever portrayed anything in the way you are describing the deaths to be. You have to take her style into account when think up character death. DD would most likely die at the hand of AK which seems to do nothing either gruesome or disturbing except kill someone.

[Just Mom]

I was sighing more than anything else. Sorry if you found it very insulting. Sometimes you just have to let things out when in an argument.

I'm still not getting this quote thing right. Good grief.

But Tanuki, this isn't an argument. It's just a discussion of differing opinions. Personal attacks aren't necessary even when opinions differ.

It sounds like you are looking for a huge build-up and will be let down if the build-up (i.e. Harry being left completely alone to face LV) isn't dramatic enough. There are a lot of folks in the series involved, however, and they all have a vested interest or love for Harry. Again, while on one hand Harry's been left in situations to deal with LV/other dangers "alone" (see Hagger's post) at the same time he hasn't been alone. And DD is like a vapor, he seems to be everywhere and nowhere all at the same time. Yet by his own admission he's not the one who can do away with the LV.

I just see more of a group effort (since that's what's been happening all along anyway) being the build-up with whatever business LV and Harry have, being the icing on the cake. I still think the theme is that you're not alone even when you feel alone. There are a lot of characters we haven't even mentioned, that are probably going to step into key positions (I predict Ginny Weasley will be one example) by the time it's all over. As for deaths, JKR has already almost as good as said they won't include Ron and Hermione, and probably not Harry and whatever other "major" characters get pulled, we too often forget that "more deaths" doesn't necessarily mean all the good people. It seems obvious by the scope of the series, that we already know who the winner of the "war" is going to be, we just don't know how it will happen.

I still maintain DD will make an exit, but it will be one that is worthy of the life he's lived. Yes, she could do away with him in some sudden, shocking way, but I don't think that will happen. If she's going to be conventional enough to let Ron and Hermione become a full-blown couple (another tidbit she's already as good as said will happen.) she's conventional enough to let a major and diginified character like Albus Dumbledore go out on his own terms.

[Tanuki]

Don't get started on Ron and Hermione or I'll pull out My Harry/Hermione proof and this'll turn into another debate altogether

As for the fact that other people have helped him. The most, other people have been able to do for the most part in these books is to get him there, he's always had to fight the final battle himself.

Asides from that, of course I expect a culmination. Without something larger and more final, what will speerate book 7 from any other book. It would be anticlimactic otherwise. It's one of those rights of passage things, you can't go home again and all that.

[Mistress Siana]

...since I have three (children) with another on the way.

Oh! Congratulations!

I still maintain DD will make an exit, but it will be one that is worthy of the life he's lived. Yes, she could do away with him in some sudden, shocking way, but I don't think that will happen. ... she's conventional enough to let a major and diginified character like Albus Dumbledore go out on his own terms.

Exactly my opinion. I cannot see Albus Dumbledore being avadakedavraed from behind, that would be as far from a worthy exit as I can imagine (except maybe from being struck dead by a menhir). I don't think anybody has the power to kill him unless he decides to sacrifice himself for some reason.
I don't really know how to express it, but don't you sometimes have a feeling somewhere in your stomach that a certain character's story needs to be finished within a story? When this happens to me, I'm mostly right (as far as the HP books are concerned, I have this feeling about Dumbledore, Snape and Harry himself). The fact that JKR uses Dumbledore as her voice contributes to that feeling; I don't think she will leave "her" character's future open to interpretation. As you said, Rev Mom, he deserves a kind of "grand closure."

And I don't count "There's no real way to continue the story, if..." as an arguement until you show me anyone who said "Oh, I bet Ron's rat turns out to be a supporter of Voldemort's" before book three. Just because we can't think of things to come doesn't mean JKR can't either.

[Nightcrawler]

Guys, this discussion has been reasonably civil so far and I'd very much like to keep it that way. This is a discussion about books that have not even been written yet. Only one person can say for sure what is and is not going to happen, the rest of us can just guess.

If somone says that they believe Harry and Draco will get married and then fly off into the sunset with Buckbeak pulling thier pumpkin carriage; feel free to present your own theory that would indicate otherwise. However, until the books are actually written, each and every theory is just that. A theory. While some may be more unlikely than others, none of them are "better" than others.





Anyhow,

Miss Siana, you touched on something I was going to suggest.

I don't really know how to express it, but don't you sometimes have a feeling somewhere in your stomach that a certain character's story needs to be finished within a story?

I feel the same way. The primary focus of the books is Harry's "story". However, unless a person has been living in a closet his whole life... er, I mean.... Unless a person never interacts with other people, his or her "story" is going to "tangle" with the stories of other people. This is really hard to word...

We are following Harry's story, however over the course of this journey we have become entalngled in the stories of Hermione, Ron, Malfoy, Snape, Dobby, Lupin, Wormtail, etc, etc. So when Harry's story resolves itself, it is only reasonable to expect the stories of these people to finish in some way too.

One of the tragities of Siriuss' death was that his story did not resolve itself. His story was cut short before it was complete. I am quite sure JKR did this because that sorta stuff sadly happens in real life.

I see Dumbledore as a man whose story is already complete. In fact, I'd say it was complete before we even met him. By this, I mean that he has resolved all of his personal issues, insecurities, and many of his problems. Of course he still does stuff, but his life has pretty much gotten to where it needs to be. In this respect, can you see the difference between Dumbledore and say... Snape?

Dumbledore is a cool character and it would be sad to see him go, but I feel that if the time comes, he is more than ready. He has done what he has set out to do, and unlike almost everybody else in the books, he is a "complete" man.

I was going to say more, but I'm not sure if what I have already said is coherent enough, so for now, I'll leave it at that.

[Just Mom]

Please Nightcrawler, answer one question:

Why are you under a piece of corigated tin by the side of the road? How comfortable can that be? Are you a slug in search of cool, damp places?

Your post brought up some very interesting things to think about. We've spent much time hashing over who is going to die in the next book, and at the same time, with the exception of a few things, the books have been fairly unpredictable so far. In each one there have been things that have happened that I didn't see coming. I would venture to say that while we speculate about what will create the arc of the story, there's quite a bit there that we haven't thought of at all and as you adroitly pointed out, while it is Harry's story, there are many others tangled up in that story as well so they need some resolution too.

You're right. DD's story is complete as far as we know, in terms of his issues, etc. He seems to be at the place in life where he knows who he is and what is purpose has been and will be ready to make a clean exit. I would like to know how he got that scar on his thigh, though.

[Hagger 9003]

yeh, ur right, just mom. (does that mean ur baby has arrived yet? if it does, congratulations!!!!) there have been clues to the resolution of the series, but i dont reckon we will be able to guess it. one thing is guaranteed, though. we will all be satisfied in some way.

i wonder about DD's scar. its almost impossible to tell whether things JKR has mentioned offhand are ultra-important or just that, offhand. its fun speculating though!!

i reckon its from Grindelwald. he sounded like a big bad guy, so he must have left a mark.

[Un'Anima Persa]

forgive me for sounfing stupid, but DD is DumbleDore isn't it??

[Just Mom]

Baby isn't due until June 4. I'm taking a sabbatical however, from the pulpit...hence the name change from Rev Mom to "Just" mom. Everyone should figure it out shortly. It's nice to be indefinitely unemployed and able for the first time in five years, to focus completely on my children and some things I'd like to do. (like writing.)

Who is Grindewald? And you're right, JKR does like to throw out details that could seem meaningless. I thought Mrs. Figg was meaningless and look who she turned out to be. And of course Scabbers, how much more meaningless than the rat be...and look where we wound up with him! Maybe the scar means more than we know...

How's the weather in Amersterdam?

[Just Mom]

Forgive the double-post.

Yes "Spongy" DD is Dumbledore! Welcome!

[Un'Anima Persa]

thanx

i am really, like the slowest person ever, so forgive me, because i almost always sound stupid... BTW, you can call meh Beka if you'd like