A death in HBP

[Tanuki]

but if you r positive, the dispointment isnt bad.

i kno about harry tho. still, if LV is so experienced, then why does he mess it up? maybe he cant kill harry yet. perhaps the prophecy hasnt been completely fulfilled yet, i dunno. a mass murderer shouldnt have trouble with a teenager.

Actually, if you're positive, then the dissapointment is worse because you expect more of people or other things. As I have always believed, the less you expect from people the more you'll be surprised when they actually deliver

The fact that Voldy can't kill Harry is one of the mysteries around him

[Just Mom]

As we say down here in the Deep South, "Ya'll....!"

Try looking at this more than just two-dimensionally. You cannot separate JKR from the stories she writes. You must factor into your theories about what "might" or "could" happen, who she is as a person. Think of her own life experiences and how they find their way into these stories. All authors, if they're not completely amoral unhealthy narcissists -and I don't believe JKR is either- want to leave something, usually something good, of themselves behind. They want to convey a message. Now think of this:

JKR is almost 40 years old. She had a crummy first marriage. She found new love later, and has created a new family with her husband, Neil. She's traveled, she's lived in abject poverty, she's enjoyed enormous wealth, she lost her mother AND she's had the benefit of great friends and family who have supported her through all these things. Do you really think, as she experienced the awesome feeling of her third child moving in her womb while writing HBP that the only thing she's trying to tell the children of the world is that it is, "unreasonably cruel" or kind only to the lower class and stupid? Is the only message she wants to give to the world one that says, "You're on your own, so watch your back. Is that all she's learned in her own experiences? Of course not. Look at the places in her own biography where mercy, kindness, second chances, and love triumphed in her "real life." I would bet everything I own that a 40 year old mother, who's seen enough of life to know that there are some harsh things, but there are some wonderful things too-like giving birth to a child- will not downgrade her stories simply to provide "suspense" and drama. Go back and read and ask yourself, "What is the author trying to tell me about the world?" I guarantee you she's trying to tell us all something or else she wouldn't waste her time writing them.

Not once, not one single time in any of the five books has Harry been "alone." Even when he felt alone, he was being watched, protected, encouraged and loved from a distance. That's one message JKR has put in these books that comes out loud and clear. Do you honestly think, that will change before it's over? No. It won't. It's not realistic. None of us are ever truly alone. If you can look at your own life and think "I was alone" in this place or that, you're not looking hard enough. There was some act of kindness, some mercy, some tenderness tucked away in the experience somewhere. Some face you've forgotten. That's real life. That's as real as it gets. We don't perform our best when our "backs are against the wall." We perform best when we know we are loved, even if we fail. That's the solid ground most of us need to stand on to become whoever it is we truly are.

[Tanuki]

What the writer wants, and what makes good literature are two seperate things. This is most evident in Sirius's death. To make good literature, Harry has to suffer. The fight against Voldermort has to be totally different from the other books in that he can't rely on anyone; and we're starting to see the books turn darker as Harry becomes more and more sepeerate from those he cares about by the simple knowledge that he either has to be murdered or murderer. The situation Harry is in has a certain mortal gravity.

You may not like the idea of characters dying, and she may not like it either, but a story develops a life of it's own and it must follow its course, despite these things

[Just Mom]

This is still not multi-dimensional enough. Writer's don't sit down and let the books and characters simply move in and take over in some sort of "mechanical dictation" situation. JKR is fully in control of what she's doing. And she's not simply concerned with producing "good literature" and all else be hanged. If she wants to write for adults, the books will start having a different age classification than "ages 8-12." When I walk into a Books-A-Million, Harry Potter books are in the children's section, "young readers," right next door to Dr. Seuss. They're not placed in a section with something really depressing, like Angela's Ashes. Some like to say that her audience is growing up so that the maturity level of the stories and characters grow with the audience, but that's neither here nor there. Her primary target group remains the one mentioned and her message, whatever it is, is directed at them.

We can talk about the story getting "darker," but here again, except for the death of Sirius Black -which wasn't unbearably violent and he was not a very well-developed character to begin with- how dark was OotP? I mean the darkness was mostly Harry's bad mood and a couple of painful, embarrassing memories. But we also got the comedy of his first kiss, the comedy of DD's "Army," the swamp compliments of Fred and George, and Dolores Umbridge being carried off into the Dark Forest which had most of us jumping up and down in hysterics.

The books aren't going to get so dark they are moved out of the "young readers" section and are no longer offered in those little Scholastic pamphlets my kids bring home.

[Phoenix in the Ashes]

JKR is trying to write about Harry, at the stage of the life he is in.
I have heard numerous 8 or 9 years olds who have read OoTP saying that it is their least favourite book, and they hate it. Why, probably because they don't understand it. JK Rowling is writing about teenagers. For teenagers or older. Every book she writes, she's writing for the age of the main character. Or the age that can understand that feelings and emotions that he is going through.

[Tanuki]

We can talk about the story getting "darker," but here again, except for the death of Sirius Black -which wasn't unbearably violent and he was not a very well-developed character to begin with- how dark was OotP? I mean the darkness was mostly Harry's bad mood and a couple of painful, embarrassing memories. But we also got the comedy of his first kiss, the comedy of DD's "Army," the swamp compliments of Fred and George, and Dolores Umbridge being carried off into the Dark Forest which had most of us jumping up and down in hysterics.

The books aren't going to get so dark they are moved out of the "young readers" section and are no longer offered in those little Scholastic pamphlets my kids bring home.

How much do we know about Dumbledore? For all we know, he's still a relative mystery. Sirius was much more open and in the two or three books, we got to know a lot about him. I also never said his death had to be horrible. I mean, AK isn't like being mauled by bears. Besides, sometimes the story does need things to move on. She didn't want to kill Sirius, but it had to be done to move the story along. Are you going to tell me that she would do the exact opposite of that and keep Dumbledore on her desires and the fan's desire's alone.

Besides, who's to say that comedy can't come without DD; people place far too much stock in a man we see so little of

[Mistress Siana]

I was actually kidding about the cynicism...

I had the slight feeling you were, as there was this little smilie indicating it... Can I say I'm cynical, but very positively so? I guess not, so I try to better. I don't want you to call me Severus, after all.

Is it possible that there is some confusion about what might motivate Harry emotionally, to enable him to be victorious over LV? [...]
We haven't seen all that emotionally drives Harry and shouldn't assume that desparation and despair will be his only motivation in the end. Even Harry isn't aware of what emotionally drives him. He's just a kid trying to stay alive.

However Harry will kill Voldemort in the end, it won't be in an act of pure revenge, driven by rage and desperation, and I'm pretty sure it won't be with Avada Kedavra. Why? Because he wouldn't be better than Voldemort, then. As Bellatrix said, the Unforgivable curses require more than rightous anger, they need pure hate, cruelty and the ability to find joy in someone else's pain. I think that one of the messages JKR wants to convey through her books is that there always are choices. Despite all the similarities between Harry and Tom Riddle, Harry's choices make him different. He won't choose the path of anger in the end. It won't be a matter of strength, because I don't think there'll be any convincing way to make Harry equally strong as Voldemort until the end of book seven. Apart from that, the subject of love plays a role far too big to give the books a "the strongest will win" kind of ending.

It's a good theory, the idea of DD dying and that being the necessary climax to push Harry over the edge, etc., but it's still lacking in "reality," and those who push this theory always do so using the logic that JKR wants to introduce children to the darker, more sinister, "real world."

I, for one, don't think that DD's death is necessary to push Harry over the edge, I moreover think that, if he dies (which I'm sure of, for reasons I've pointed out), HBP will be the right place because rage is not the way to defeat Lord Voldemort. JKR however said that when she writes about evil, she also has the duty to show evil killing the innocent, and also those who we love. Of course writers, espcially writers like JKR, think about more things than producing technically good literature, but unless they use experimental styles of writing, which JKR doesn't, there are some basic rules they have to stick with. I believe that the "How can we ever go on from here?" point is one of those things that will inevitably have to be in a good vs. evil story, and I can't see this happening without Dumbledore dying.

[Hagger 9003]

wow. some really deep thinking going on here. well done

What i want to say is that LV is not going to be killed. he cant be killed. if AK cant kill him, what can? he is to be "vanquished". JKR said she worded the prophecy really carefully, so it needs to be carefully checked. harry is going to have to love. that is the theme of the books. it will be hard. the battle between what is right and what is easy apparently will feature majorly in book 6.

i really dont reckon DD will die. i just cant see it. for moving the plot forward or anything. DD dying will mess up the OotP and Hogwarts. there is no decent person around to replace him. if he died, LV would completely have the advantage, and would not pause to press it home and attack harry. therefore, how could DD die in book 6? maybe, he might die in book 7, but then harry would have to recover quickly. however, maybe that will be the challenge for harry. overcoming DD's death to fight LV without hate, and then becoming the new leader. because harry will lead. he has power in him, and although DD wont die yet, when harry fights LV with others, he leads them. maybe DD will be imprisoned/incapacitated, so harry has to fight a few fights on his own. but i really dont think DD will die in book 6. its too early. sure, the series is about harry. and, if DD dies, harry will be suffering more than is needed for effect. plenty of other opportunities will arise for that later on ...

im just going to say agian, the OotP would completely fall apart. snape would no longer be trusted without DD around, and no new leader would trust him. moody hates him, harry hates him, all the weasley kids hate him... DD is his only lifeline. without him, he is busted. however, snape is an essential character, who gets essential information for the OotP. DD dying will not happen!!!!!!

[Tanuki]

[quote="Mistress Siana Why? Because he wouldn't be better than Voldemort, then. As Bellatrix said, the Unforgivable curses require more than rightous anger, they need pure hate, cruelty and the ability to find joy in someone else's pain. I think that one of the messages JKR wants to convey through her books is that there always are choices. Despite all the similarities between Harry and Tom Riddle, Harry's choices make him different. He won't choose the path of anger in the end. It won't be a matter of strength, because I don't think there'll be any convincing way to make Harry equally strong as Voldemort until the end of book seven. Apart from that, the subject of love plays a role far too big to give the books a "the strongest will win" kind of ending.

I, for one, don't think that DD's death is necessary to push Harry over the edge, I moreover think that, if he dies (which I'm sure of, for reasons I've pointed out), HBP will be the right place because rage is not the way to defeat Lord Voldemort. JKR however said that when she writes about evil, she also has the duty to show evil killing the innocent, and also those who we love. Of course writers, espcially writers like JKR, think about more things than producing technically good literature, but unless they use experimental styles of writing, which JKR doesn't, there are some basic rules they have to stick with. I believe that the "How can we ever go on from here?" point is one of those things that will inevitably have to be in a good vs. evil story, and I can't see this happening without Dumbledore dying.[/quote]

That's one of the thing's I've been trying to get across, without people on the end of their ropes, how can victory seem as totally redeeming and sweet. If nothing changed before the end, how are we going to reach a climax. The truth of any story is that things have to get worse before they get better. It creates a sense of closure, like crawling out of a dtch in the ruins of a city, beaten and bloody, only to watch the sun rise and feel a sense of "this is finally over." Granted, there will be people to come back to, but Snape and DD can't be around then. I'ts the person he hero trusts least who will inevitably give their life to save them and the strongest person in the eyes of the hero who go away before the main villian can be fought

[Mistress Siana]

The truth of any story is that things have to get worse before they get better.

This is why I say that DD has to die, not to have Harry do "some fights on his own".
Hagger, I guess you and me are running around in circles here . We both agree what would happen if DD died, but you say it's the reason it can't happen, whereas I say it's exactly what needs to happen...maybe we should take bets...

[Tanuki]

10 om DD top bite the monkey (my own version of die)

[Just Mom]

Oh please can someone teach me how to quote in the nice little boxes like the rest of you?

There was an earlier post by Phoenix I think that made a point about the characters getting older, etc., so the stories themselves get darker and older. Now here's my "cynical" side. JKR, as much money as she's made for her publishing company can probably do whatever she wants. However, most books have to have a "target audience" for marketing purposes. At present, the HP series is still written on a reading level/subject maturity level of 8-12 years old. That's the target audience. If she were to really go "older," we'd have them experimenting with s*x and smoking dope in the shadows of the Dark Forest. I doubt that will happen, even though they're going to be at least 17 by the time all is said and done. I think the kiss with Cho Chang is about as racy as the books are going to get. Otherwise, it will destroy the marketing for the target audience. Also, JKR has said emphatically that she despises, "gratuitous violence." So mass slaughter, which is also for the more mature, is probably not going to happen either. This becomes a marketing problem. I don't think she'll go out of bounds of safe writing, marketing, publishing, etc. The public, can adore you one minute, and sink your ship the next. Why do you think Sir Arthur Conan Doyle resurrected Sherlock Holmes?

I've said all along that DD will probably either die, or retire, or something along those lines. He deserves though, some really grand closure and I believe JKR will give that to him -probably in Book 7- because he's that kind of character. What I don't believe is that everything hinges on Harry being left totally alone with his back against the wall. Nothing that has happened so far, has gone in that direction at all and real life isn't like that either. (and I've got 40 years of living it and watching it in others to know that for sure) The life lesson and the maturity of JKR will want to push the inevitable wisdom that people are never alone even when they feel alone. To me that makes for a better story than simply the very dramatic but formulaic "it's me against the world" thing before a victory happens. The victory I believe, will come about as a collaborative effort of individuals in addition to Harry who really believe in their cause.

[carsten]

Oh please can someone teach me how to quote in the nice little boxes like the rest of you?

Try the quote-button in the top-right corner of each post.

What I don't believe is that everything hinges on Harry being left totally alone with his back against the wall. Nothing that has happened so far, has gone in that direction at all and real life isn't like that either. (and I've got 40 years of living it and watching it in others to know that for sure) ...

So, Rev Mom, we are at same age, but have different opinions on this. I agree to your observations on JKR's attitude towards writing, but as you said, she is very independent and may as well surprise us with a few juicy, zesty scenes. In the past she used very traditional story structure, similar to average adventure movies. Her books become movies, too. So if books 6+7 were sequels in film business, I would expect DD to leave as the climax of book/movie 6 and Harry to stand alone against LV at the end of book 7.

Your bets are welcome!

[Just Mom]

Oh Carsten how can I ever thank you? However, whenever I push the quote button, it either quotes the entire post or if I block out what I want quoted, shows up in my message , well, not looking like what you just quoted from my former post....


Define "DD leave..." We may not be on different sides here.

[Tanuki]

Rev mom thinks so little of children...

Why do you think kid's can't handle things like death or injusice? Do you think them so stupid they can't handle it, or do you think the world has sheltered them? On either point I would be driven to disagree with you. I have seen twelve year olds and eight year olds who have seen and understand things better than many adults, and that population is growing. You also seem to equate DD dying with wholesale slaughter. Why is that, Harry and the other's aren't involved in a safe situation, but a war where people are going to die. Cedric Diggory died simply by being here and Sirius did die in battle, even if it wasn't the spell that did him in. JKR has touched in subjects of tourture, killing, rather lewd things happening in the bush at the yule ball between fleur and another boy and a whole host of other things you would think innappropriate with the suggestions you're making.