Confrontation on the Astronomy Tower

[Imelyen]

Ummm Snowy...What books are you reading? James didnt pass information to Snape about Lupin and the Whomping Willow...Sirius did that by himself, and it was JAMES who saved him, not Lilly...All Lilly did was stand up for him. And as for any debt owed for that. He repayed it in Harry's first year. And Snape was a Half-Blood, not a muggle-born (Muggle-Borns have no wizarding parentage)

[Lelie]

it seems natural that harry wouldn't listen to snape, particularly at that moment. harry has always seen snape as a threat, and for all he knew, a person that was continuously trying to lead him down a path of destruction, even if no one could catch him at it.
as for fawkes, no, i don't believe he is dead. he just left the grounds. the simple fact that both harry and voldemort have fawkes' tail feathers in their wands should be enough evidence that he will have a part to play in the end. i doubt that it was merely coincidence that it was that particular phoenix who gave feathers for those wands.

[DumbledoreistheMaster]

I agree that Fawkes will have a big part in the end not only because his feathers are in Harry and Voldemorts wands but because (at least to Harry) Fawkes represents Dumbledore. Harry says numerous times that Pheonix song is the sound he associates with Dumbledore. As for the Pheonix Lament, I think that was to remind everyone of Dumbledore and how much he was loved. Also I think it helped let the other animals such as the centaurs and merpeople know that Dumbledore had died.

[niki_192]

u know...... harry was right about snape and draco the whole time and he was also telling every one but they all said that he was being obsessed and for him to drop it

[Stumpy]

not really cos DD had a reason for trusting him and draco was not a killer, as he lowered his wand!

[niki_192]

hermione ron lupin and mr weasley still all thought that harry was being to obsessive and harry knew draco was up to something really bad

[Snow_Crystal]

Ummm Snowy...What books are you reading? James didnt pass information to Snape about Lupin and the Whomping Willow...Sirius did that by himself, and it was JAMES who saved him, not Lilly...All Lilly did was stand up for him. And as for any debt owed for that. He repayed it in Harry's first year. And Snape was a Half-Blood, not a muggle-born (Muggle-Borns have no wizarding parentage)

As I said, I vaguely recollected something along these lines but I'm sure that the occasion where Lily stood up for him was when Harry first went into the Pensieve before an Occlumency lesson with Snape - he saw James and Sirius taunting Snape and had thrown Snape up into the air (the same spell Harry learned in HBP) so his pants were showing in front of loads of people or it was something like that.

Lupin told Harry in POA that Lily had been there for him when no-one else was - i.e. the time when Lily jumped in to save Snape when both James and Sirius had tricked him into going to the Whomping Willow. Harry at this time was beginning to think James and Sirius were not the "hero's" he thought they were.

I feel I need to go and double-check this so will get back to you but if Snape does owe Lily, what I want to establish is what constitutes as repayment? Surely it should be a life-debt? Could it therefore be that Snape (and even Wormtail) will die in the next book protecting Harry?

Just one question though, how do you think he repaid it in the first year?

[Stumpy]

He was in debt to James and repaid it to Harry but i cant remember wot it was

[thestral]

the counter jinx snape did, when quirrrel was trying to throw harry off the broom. although i thought it had to be a much bigger action. but then i don't actually know anything about what actually fulfils a wizards debt

[Stumpy]

cheers forgot that one, i think a life for a life fufils a debt!

[DumbledoreistheMaster]

Ya, Lily did NOT save Snape from Sirius and James attempting to hurt him because James didn't lure Snape there Sirius did-James saved him.

And in POA did Lupin really say Lily was there for him at a time when no one else was? I thought that was just in the movie. But anyway if it did happen it could've meant that she saw the good in people (I mean she tried to get James to stop picking on Snape when we all know Snape was a git).

[Froggs]

What gets me the most is DD's pleading with Snape at the end. I can't get that right in my head for either the Snape Is Bad or Snape is Good theories. DD just wouldn't plead...he just wouldn't! Not for mercy or to be killed. It is not his style. DD has always been "all knowing" in the past, what were his reasons this time? What happened on the tower that DD wanted HP immobolized for, what was it that HP witnessed that is going to be of help later? I don't know, that last scenes with DD seemed totally weird to me, from the cave on out. What did DD mean by saying that he knew he was safe because he was with HP (or something like that) after the potion drinking? How come DD didn't sense that someone had alreay removed the original locket? Too many mistakes on DD's part. Sorry, I know I'm going back and forth, just trying to understand!

[Lone_Buck]

DD seemed to know that Draco was up to something throughout the year, and snape probably told him that confrontation he had with Narcissa and Beatrix. Dumbledore would never want on of his students to become a killer, and knew that either way he would have to die, and he surely had some idea of what Draco's mission was. Throughout the entire book, i thought Draco's mission was to kill Harry.

[Snow_Crystal]

Ummm Snowy...What books are you reading? James didnt pass information to Snape about Lupin and the Whomping Willow...Sirius did that by himself, and it was JAMES who saved him, not Lilly...All Lilly did was stand up for him. And as for any debt owed for that. He repayed it in Harry's first year. And Snape was a Half-Blood, not a muggle-born (Muggle-Borns have no wizarding parentage)

Imelyen

Just checked this out, you're absolutely right. It was James that bottled it at the last minute and saved Snape's life. Think I've watched the film too many times recently in the run up to the release of HBP. In the film Lupin says that it was Lily who showed him kindness but in the book (which is undoubtedly better in my opinion) Snape tells Harry that James bottled it.

I stand corrected on that.

However, I still feel Snape owed James a life-debt for saving Snape's life. I'm a firm believer in an eye-for-an-eye. Because James has passed on, it should pass to Harry.


And another thing...

I suspect that Lily and Snape had a special bond as a result of this incident, an affinity for both being muggle-borns and therefore became Potions friends. Hence the reason why Lily was so good at Potions.

I said this earlier in this thread and have now decided its total rubbish!! Re-reading OOTP tonight (the chapter on Snape's worst memory) James, Sirius, Lupin, Wormtail, Lily and Snape have just taken an OWL exam and James and Sirius have been teasing Snape. Lily stands up for him but Snape calls Lily a "Filthy Mudblood". Age at the time was 15 for all of them. I can't imagine Lily and Snape suddenly become best buddies in the last 2 years!

This could of course have been a cover up because he is ashamed of his own heritage and that he wants to fit into Slytherin but I think everyone in Slytherin knows he's muggle-born and that's why he has no friends in his own house and perhaps another reason why he has not been fully accepted by the Death Eaters who are of the same approximate age. Also in OOTP he still calls LV Dark Lord - Harry asks him about this and he doesn't respond.

But on the other hand, could the fact that he's muggle-born be part of the thing that has convinced Dumbledore that he is good? Oh I just don't know any more!! Whether the man is good or not will certainly be a nail-biting question for the last book...

[Froggs]

But on the other hand, could the fact that he's muggle-born be part of the thing that has convinced Dumbledore that he is good?

I don't think Snape was muggle born, he's half blood.