Dumbledore an actor in league with Voldemort (James Potter)

[Gwared]

Thanks to Meg and Holly for answering the Riddle riddle!

[Sacred Guardian]

yeah, i thought about the thing with james coming from voldemort's wand right after i posted, and yes, voldemort killed his dad and his grandparents

[Philosoph]

Littlemissy: I apologize if my method of communication is offensive. It is not, and hasn't been, my intention to to condescend. As a matter of interest, I haven't even realized that I was acting arrogant.

To explain something about myself, I am living in a world which is centered by the eloquent, and it is common practice to speak the way I do. I am not meaning to speak unnaturally rude, where I come from the way I speak is almost expected. Again I apologize. In the class room it is my responsibility to command the respect of the pupils, I have been told this and I understadn it. Therefore it is my habit to address persons unknown in such am anner, I do not intend that in this case. Please excuse my tendency.

Meg Boyd:

WHO IS THE MORAL CENTER OF THE HARRY POTTER SERIES????

IS THERE A CHRIST FIGURE PRESENT, AND IF SO WHO???

IS THERE A MOTIF PRESENT, SUCH AS THE EARTH MOTHER OR JOURNEY MOTIF?????

I can understand why your teacher is only a teacher.

Again I apologize to you if I offended you. Please listen to me, when you have ascended beyond the high school loevel, I presume that's your level, you will realize that this kind of symbolism isn't always innate and often is mistaken. I find it of almost insignificant value personally, which is why my personal genres of interest turn toward science fictions and fantasies, as well as science fantasies.

This is to my discredit in the field, but most professors will agree with me that those questions, aren't invalid, but are somewhat unnecessary. Pointless. Just between you and I.

Gwared: I appreciate your call for peace. Also I am informing you that I will not bite back, my every intention is to maintain a mature and calm discussion in which we can enlighten each other. I also hope that is the case that there is a predominant older audience here. I have made a conscious effort at limiting my vocabulary for the benefit of the primary schoolers, so I don't know exactly what I am doing wrong. I will however try to pay more attention to my conduct, at your request.

Also the title is more of a signiture than a boast. It is the same as I sign everything, since I am expected to do so in that manner at the university. (except for legal documents and checks, those are just my name)

So again it is my habit, not my boast. If you'll now excuse my next comment, no offense is intended, if I were to choose an audience to boast to it would not be a Harry Potter internet forum. I come here instead for my own interest, and not to enhance my prestige. I think it is obvious why.

I believe I have covered everything, so unless there are other questions, we may resume the discussion forth with.

Please realize I gave you the theories of the classroom, and not my own. Though I find them interesting. I will expound later but urgent matters call me from the computer at this time, my apologies.

Reginald Keenman PhD in Literature Analysis

[Blaise Zabini]

While I do agree that the conclusion of the series will most likely end on one of the three ways previously mentioned, I do find the rest of the theory implausible. Many of these reasons have already been mentioned, so I won't bother iterating them, as to avoid being repititious. Mainly, the events surrounding the Priori Incantato event, in which Lily and James emerged from the wand of Voldemort, present James and Voldemort simultaneously being at the same location, refuting the fact that the two could be the same person. Furthermore, the difference between the ages of James and Voldemort also establishes the fact the the two cannot possibly be the same. As Gwared said, James was eleven during Voldemort's first reign of power; I find it inconceivable that, with such a large dissemblance of age, either could be the other. And finally, though it may be a juvenile arguement on my part, as Philosoph said earlier, this book is in the genre of 'happy-fiction,' I find it unlikely that both the father of our protagonist and his nemisis could be the same person.

As for the Evil!Dumbledore idea, though I do find it more plausible than the previous theory, I still don't find it likely. For one, I'll use it again, we're still in the 'happy-fiction' genre, I haven't read too many books in that category in which the mentor of the protagonist betrays him due to ambition and want for power. Furthermore, throughout the series, Dumbledore has served as a type of secondary father figure to Harry, he has been the main voice of reason and understanding, and more than all the other characters (with the possible exception of Lupin,) seems to have Harry's best intentions at heart. For him to turn away from that relationship would be completely inconsistent with his character. And, as we all must remember, this is esentially is a children's book where such things should be kept in mind.

As for the 'eyes' passage, my copy of PS is on Connecticut, and and far away from me, so I'm a bit lost. Could also be due to the fact that it's around 3:30 AM...

[Gwared]

Gwared: I appreciate your call for peace. Also I am informing you that I will not bite back, my every intention is to maintain a mature and calm discussion in which we can enlighten each other. I also hope that is the case that there is a predominant older audience here. I have made a conscious effort at limiting my vocabulary for the benefit of the primary schoolers, so I don't know exactly what I am doing wrong. I will however try to pay more attention to my conduct, at your request.

You've explained enough, I feel, in your statement. Thank you for your consideration.

[Sacred Guardian]

dumbledore cannot be evil, because he is a christ figure, it is illustrated many times in the book that he could if he wished, take over the ministry (you saw with what ease he escaped the aurors) and when voldemort possesed harry in dumbledore and voldemorts fight, that was like the devil tempting christ to take the power (or in this case good), but this also means that dumbledore will have to die, but also make a reapearence, then die again, but it is said that you can't restore life, but this is not necessary, he just has to be in some way incapacitated for a time (you can find this in a book i read in english this year called "A Seperate Peace") but then he will come back to help harry, and then ultimatly die for good.

just a side note, if any of you have read the lord of the rings trilogy, gandalf is also a christ figure if you havn't noticed, but that is not this topic, so i won't stray far

[Meg Boyd]

Ok, even though I promised my self I'd leave this thread lie, I can't help it. It's just too juicy to leave it alone....acccckkk

Philosoph: Thanks for answering my questions. I suppose it was wrong of me to ask them, but I always wondered what other literature instructors thought of them since I had never had a teacher who was so heck bent on them before. I do see those literary aspects come up every once in awhile, like the Christ Figures present in Lord of the Flies or The Grapes of Wrath, but I always thought sometimes maybe the story was just that, a story. But maybe that's just my ignorance of the subject because of my youth.

Leading on to the Christ Figures...

12321: Now that you say it, I see what you mean totally! Especially if you look at the fact that the leader of the people (Fudge in HP) seems very threatened by DD's power over the people and will perhaps try send him to his death like how the Roman Empire was very threatened by Jesus's power over his followers. Just as Pilate tried to make a deal with the people to free Jesus by offering to free Jesus or Barabas the Murderer, perhaps a ministry worker (Percy???) will try and free DD by making a similar deal only with DD and a Death Eater (such as Lucius Malfoy???)......hmmmm....just a thought....i'm probably wrong anyways...

Hope Everyone has a super day!!!

The sunshine is finally out over here, so if you are as lucky as me, try and enjoy it!!!

PS and I have no idea why when I press preview that the "a" in Grapes Of Wrath has an * instead of the "a". I'm pretty sure Grapes isn't a nasty word...

[Philosoph]

Theological representation or symbolism is extremely rare in child fiction. Though Harry Potter proves to appeal to both adult and child audiences I doubt any such symbolism will intentionally occur here. As it stands more than half of the "Christ figures" found in literature were subconscious patterns, or coincidences all together. Also the tendency to use such a device was much stronger in the older classics, mostly Middle English literature, and some Modern English (that's at least 150+ years old.) However with the liberal idealism spreading through society it is a decreasing tendency. A greater open-mindedness is a common attitude to many new writers and they tend to create worlds of fiction and fantasy that are unattached or unlimited to such elements.

I believe that the time to study religious symbolism in modern works, of both writing and art, is passing. This is why we've been advised, as literature professors, to place far less emphasis on the subject. For years I have been doing that and so I find it a convenient excuse to place even less emphasis than normal. The truth of the matter is that I find the whole thing rather drab. So if you are ever under the impression that all of your English teachers and professors appreciate every aspect of what they teach you, ha! think again! Of course most of you I'm sure already knew that, but it would surprise you how many students do not. Even at Yale. Quite frustrating really.

Ok back to the subject. We do not agree on the theories posted, which is expected. So I will take a step backwards and make a statement, agree with it or refute it.

The Harry Potter series will, definitely, encounter a series of MAJOR plot twists and turnarounds which will serve to keep the interest of the reader and add to the originality of the story. Though some have already occurred, which is the greatest supporter of this conclusion, it can be said the most major of these will occur in the two concluding books.

This is something I think we can all agree on for starters. If you do not, please please please speak. If we do, then we should discuss our ideas and work together to rule out the ones we can. That way when we do finally read those books we can have the satisfaction of thinking to ourselves "I knew that was coming." If you'd like you can consider this activity a lesson from a Literature Analysis professor, maybe you can get extra credit for it in High School English. If you prefer though we can consider this a mutual exchange of ideas between avid fans. I see it as a kind of mixture of the two.

Reginald Keenman PhD in Literature Analysis

[littlemissy]

Sorry Philosoph, I feel really mean now!
It was the comments suggesting that we might not be able to grasp what you were writing about that got to me, but I can see that you were probably addressing people younger than myself (I sometimes forget Harry Potter is a childrens' book!!!) and I shouldn't have taken them so personally.
I hope you will forgive me!

[Sacred Guardian]

no doubt that there will be great plot twists, and that is deffinatly to keep the intrest of the readers, and no doubt that the biggest ones will be in the last two books, but i can say with great confidence that james potter is not voldemort, it would be a huge twist to make dumbledore evil, but i seriously doubt with 80% sureness that dumbledore will turn evil

[Dink Meeker]

The Harry Potter series will, definitely, encounter a series of MAJOR plot twists and turnarounds which will serve to keep the interest of the reader and add to the originality of the story. Though some have already occurred, which is the greatest supporter of this conclusion, it can be said the most major of these will occur in the two concluding books.

Reginald Keenman PhD in Literature Analysis

On the surface this statement may seem a little vague and you might think to yourself, of course there will be plot twists, but it is surprising the number of people I have spoken with who think that the final 2 books will be a showdown between HP and LV with all the powers and allies from the first 5 books remaining constant.

I agree with Philosoph. Each revelation of an unknown piece of history (Harry's parents, Snape, Dumbledore, etc) will twist and turn the plot. JKR's deliberate lack of information on anything prior to Harry Potter at age 12 has left her free to take the characters anywhere she wants.

[Albus]

Well, I read JK said in an interview that there is something which is really the key of everything , and she would be very annoyed if she noticed that someone understood it before reading it in her books...
She said also that reading some forums, she has read that someone really got very very near to the thing...

I wonder what it might be...

In my opinion that will be a revelation about one of Harry's parents, probably Lily... I don't know... But I don't know if I wish I knew it before reading... It would ruin the suspence, wouldn't it ?

[Sacred Guardian]

yes, i think that we will find that lily is not all she seams to be, that she was in fact, much more powerful than ever imagined

[Holly Golightly]

But I don't know if I wish I knew it before reading... It would ruin the suspence, wouldn't it ?

Well... personally, even though I spent hours upon hours arguing, mainly with Neo, about the different thinks that might possibly happen in OOTP, I honsetly forgot about all of them when I was reading the book!!!

I'd say that there are two, well, really three possible reasons for this..
1) the book was soo captivating, that all I was interested in was reading it!
2) none of the theories were actually right, (at least I cant' remember any that were!)
and possibly 3) maybe my brain can only concentrate on one thing at a time!!!

I woulod say that there are going to be deinfate plot twists in the ends of the next two books though, after all, there always has been! As to what we think that they will be... well, isn't that what this whole part of hte forum is for??? Theories!!!

(okies, I'm strange, and I dont' always make sense!!! But at least I think I'm funny!!! )

Holly

[Eol]

So it is true, the literature programme at Yale does suck

A writer as original and imaginitive as JK Rowling will not stoop to such predictable and boring plot twists such as Voldy being Harry's father.
Tom Riddle being a clever ruse?

Oh I see what this is... a piss take