Prophecy

[Malachim]

Okay... I guess I'll try my hand at explaining what I think about the prophecy.

First off, prophecy is always a very twisty road. I actually thought this one was extremely straight forward, which is what bothered me about it. Anyway, prophecy can only exsist if some sort of fate exsists, otherwise it's just ramblings.

Let's start with a definition (from Dictionary.com):
prophecy

n 1: knowledge of the future (usually obtained from a divine source) [syn: prognostication, vaticination] 2: a prediction uttered under divine inspiration [syn: divination]

So this means, by definition that prophecy is true. Therefore Harry is obviously the one referenced in the prophecy and Neville could never have been the one. Why? Because Neville wasn't marked. It is somewhat self-fulfilling but just because Neville could have been the one due to circumstance does not mean he ever WOULD have been.

Prophecy creates the supposition of fate in that the future is fortellable, that there is a couse of events that cannot be changed. This doesn't mean everything is written in stone but that the prophecy itself must be true.

So, armed with that Neville could not be the one. No matter what. Voldamort was ALWAYS going to mark harry. Now, this is true even if Voldy KNEW ahead of time it was Harry and wanted to change events, he would not have been able to. something would have happened to prevent it.

The main problem I have with this prophecy is that it was too straight forward. Usually it's in riddle form or can mean any one of several things which makes it hard to decipher. This one was plain as someone talking to you. That made me feel a bit let down. IT is, however, a children's book per se.

[Nothlit]

So, armed with that Neville could not be the one. No matter what. Voldamort was ALWAYS going to mark harry.

I don't see how that's necessarily the case. The prophecy was very vague. If Voldemort had gone after Neville, then Neville would have been the one and not Harry. But Voldemort went after Harry instead, so Harry is the one. Nothing in the prophecy specifies Harry over Neville. That choice was Voldemort's alone.

[Malachim]

Well, right and wrong.

Because Voldamort chose Harry then Harry was always the one. The prophecy can't be wrong so since that's what happened then that's what was always going to happen.

I know it's twisted but that's the way it is.

Prophecy is like being able to look into the future. So, in the future the choice was made, since the prophecy has to be true and it looked into the future and Harry has been chosen then it must always have been harry.

I think the confucing part is that we are looking at the back end of the prophecy. It's already come true, there fore you can now make statements of fact.

Before the event happened (Harry being marked) you could speculate, is it Harry or Neville? Now, since it happened we already know.

Also, The prophecy says it would be one person, not a choice of two or anything like that. So, by default it would have always been that one person.

I know it's twisty and maybe I am not explaining it well. I am trying though

I'll leave you with this:
Prophecy is always true, but until the event happens it may not be the truth you expect.

[moony]

um, oki...
i'm not a native speaker of english, i study english at uni, you people are ( i assume ). but it seems to me you're taking this whole ''marked'' thing way too literaly. i agree with malachim that propechies are usualy rether vague, that's what propechies are - it's the future, but you don't really realise it tells the future until it actually comes true, otherwise you'd know what will happen and you'd try (and maybe be able to) stop it. and if you stopped it it wouldn't be a propechy anymore. (tho, i must agree with malachim again, this one seems way too forward for a prophecy).
that's my opinion. but i'm digressing way too much here.

what i was going to say is that i understod the ''marked'' thing metaphorically, i didn't even pause to think that it might be the literal meaning - that it might be that it means to give someone a mark (i.e. harry's scar). to me, it seemed natural to assume that ''the dark lord will mark him as his equal'' meant the dark lord will chose his own enemy, thus, maybe, choosing the weapon of his own demise.

that's what i think, anyway. neville was out of the picture the moment voldemort pointed his wand at harry. and i honestly doubt he can be 'back in the picture' in any way, at any point in the future.

[Nothlit]

I completely agree with you, moony, about the marked thing. In fact, I brought it up somewhere on this forum a couple of days ago that the mark that the prophecy speaks of may not be a physical mark at all. But I still think Harry was the one who was "marked," however the term is meant to be used.

And I see where you're going too, Malachim, although the fact still remains that if Voldemort had chosen Neville, then the prophecy would have been about Neville all along. I think we're both getting at the same point, but you're just more willing than I am to accept what has happened and not wonder what might have happened under different circumstances.

[Malachim]

Well I only accept it because it's what happened. If Neville was the one marked then take all I said and swap the name Harry for Neville and vise versa

All I wanted to get at was that Voldemort didnt really have a choice. He couldnt have chosen wrong no matter wether he chose Harry or Neville. It was preordained as the prophecy exsisted. That was all I was trying tyo get at.

Now as for the mark. When I read it I also took it metaphorically at first
as you both (Nothlit and Moony) suggested. But then I think it was Dumbledoor that either came right out and said or implied that the scar was in fact the mark. Makes sense for a kids book that the mark would be more blunt then in a book meant for a more mature audience.

[Lizzy Bennet]

Totally O/T: WOW! Nothlit, I totally dig your avatar...where did you get it and is it allowed on this Forum? I would double-check with Paul, since he's sensitive (and rightly so) about copyright issues.

On-Topic: Harry survived Voldemort's attack as a baby not only because of the prophecy but also because of his mother's love/sacrifice, is that correct? If that's the case, that's part of Voldemort wanted to use Harry's blood so badly in book 4...he wanted some of that protection. Then, Dumbledore had a gleam in his eye which some people speculated could be because, having taken Harry's blood, while it does have 'protection', it could have also made Voldemort more human, thus easier to kill. So, of Harry and Voldemort, who is vulnerable more to whom? According to this prophecy, they are only threats to each other, yet each has things about them which makes them powerful and protected. Additionally, when Harry was a baby, did Lily put a charm on him, tying in the fact that her wand was good for charmwork in? Have I totally lost everyone? I've confused myself! hehehehe

[APWBD]

Lizzie said

when Harry was a baby, did Lily put a charm on him, tying in the fact that her wand was good for charmwork in? Have I totally lost everyone? I've confused myself! hehehehe

I totally agree with you lizzie...I wrote something in another thread
http://www.broomsticksandowls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1273
About how Lily might have done some charm work to save harry... I'll post it here as well
I was talking about AK being blockable or not, and this was my response.

I see what ur talking about Boycey... But i don' t think it is blockable with any type of spell. After all, if it were, why wouldn't Lily and James have used it? They seemed powerful enough to know how to do a complex spell like that. Unless... well, this idea would probably belong in a thread about Lily, but her wand was good for charm work right? So what if she sacrificed herself and put the charm on Harry, protecting him, and then Voldie tried to kill Lily bc he knew what she was trying to do, and he wanted to break the charm. But killing her didn't break the charm, even though Voldemort thought that it would, so The charm not only protected Harry, but bounced the spell back at Voldie. The only charm I can think of is the shield charm, but it can only deflect minor jinxes. However, if Lily were as good at charms as she's supposed to be, then maybe she knew how to make the charm stronger???

(The shield charm in talked about in ch. 25, pg 553 Am version, or about 5 pages into the british version, when they talk about Neville and D.A.)

[Holly Golightly]

Well, I may have a childlike mind but when I read marked, I immediately though of the scar!!! After all, Voldie left no other kind of mark on Harry, unless you can count orphaning him, thus altering his childhood???

I understand what you were saying there Malachim, and kind of agree with it, but at teh same time, I get the feeling that Neville might have powers due to the fact that he was a possibility or sorts fo the prophecy... I know that the possibility thing totally contradicts what you were saying, but I think that Neville will have a part to play in this, otherwise there would have been no point in mentioning that he was another possibility...

I know that it's kind of strange, but I do agree that because Harry was chosen, he was alwyas the one, but then why mention Neville at all, after all, JK didn't have to make his B-day in July, same as Harry's, whch would make him a possiblity for the prophecy... I just think that there has to be a reason for her doing that...

Hrmm, have I just been repeating myself in circles, becaues I tend to to do that sometimes... Oh wells!!! I cant' help it, but sorry people's if I'm confusing or repetative!!!

[werebane]

I know what you mean and i agree; the scrar on harrys forehead is a mark that means hes equal to him. i mean he survived the killing curse

[June]

I know that it's kind of strange, but I do agree that because Harry was chosen, he was alwyas the one, but then why mention Neville at all, after all, JK didn't have to make his B-day in July, same as Harry's, whch would make him a possiblity for the prophecy... I just think that there has to be a reason for her doing that...

Perhaps it's just to once again emphasise the fact that choice matters more than destiny? After all, Voldemort chose to 'mark' Harry... in whatever way it is, and hence, set himself up to face Harry as his ultimate rival? Just an idea, anyway...

[Holly Golightly]

It's a good idea, and I dont' mean to diss it, but isn't the point of the prophecy that choice doesnt' play a part...

I mean, the fact that the prophecy is about Harry means, as I see it, that it could never have been about Neville, and the fact that he was also born in late July has nothing to do with the prophecy...

But then, as I mentioned, I'm kinda torn with what to think... because that's the way that I believe that it should be, but then why mention Neville if he's going to have nothing to do with it???

Hrmm, I hate being confused!!!
Neo, where are you! Come here and have an opinion, so that I can disagree with you just on principle!!!

[Nothlit]

The prophecy isn't about Harry. It's about "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." Either Harry or Neville could have been "the one," but Voldemort chose to mark Harry as his equal (in whatever way you interpret that term), so Harry it is. Choice is a big theme in this series.

The prophecy didn't cause any of this to happen, it merely foretold what would already happen.

And I agree, I think Neville will have something to do with this at some point. Maybe not in a huge way, but like others have said, JKR doesn't mention things unless they're important...

[Holly Golightly]

Yeah, but my point kinda is that at the point of creation of the prophecy, it was speaking of Harry, not Neville... and that Voldie chose Harry was jsut proof of this...

A prophecy is given/written/made/whatever with specifics in mind, so when it was made, it meant that it was for Harry, just people weren't sure... If it was meant to be Neville, Voldie wouldnt' have been able to have marked Harry... or at least that's how I'm seeing it...

[Malachim]

I agree with what you just said there Holly, and I think we are on the same page with this.

I don't doubt Neville will play some part as he has certianally become a more main character. I just dispute that he would have anything special in the way of powers because of a prophecy that had nothing to do with him.

This doesn't mean he won't have great power, just that it really will have nothing to do with that prophecy.

LOL... Prophecies are always slippery slopes! And usually they are more twisted!!