Spinner's End septology clue

[Lelie]

[quote="Dutchess42He began the vow straight on, but when they got to the bit about actually finishing the task if Draco couldn't Snape hesitated. He was unprepared for that part. But by that time he could not have refused. In for a penny, in for a pound.[/quote]

you know, i was just re-reading the part about the unbreakable vow last night, and something interesting jumped out at me. not only did snape hesitate, he twitched.

"and if it should prove necessary ... if it seems draco will fail ..." whispered narcissa. (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away). "will you carry out the deed that the dark lord has ordered draco to perform?"

perhaps i'm just grasping at straws here, but is it possible for snape to have somehow avoided the last part of the vow by moving his hand?

[Dutchess42]

I do think you're grasping at straws on that one. After all, the binding did take place in the end of the ritual.

[Snow_Crystal]

As a good Leglimens, Snape must have known what she was asking him to do and from her, what Draco's task was - assuming Narcissa wasn't a good Occlumens of course.

I think he might have used some sort of unspoken spell. There was a reason he was silent for a moment - Snape doesn't tend to mess about with words.

I also think he couldn't have refused as he would have exposed himself to risk. If Bella had gone back to LV with news of what had occurred, she could have given LV reason to doubt Snape's intentions. Bella is desperate for a chance to prove herself again...

Snape is the key and the twist to the storyline, what fun would it be if there was no twist? He is JKR's secondary star and you can tell that she loves this character as she has thought long and hard about how he should be perceived. To me, he comes across as the secret agent James Bond equivalent for Harry Potter!

[Dutchess42]

Been thinking (yikes)

Snape saved Harry early on at the Q match when Quirrell was trying to knock him off his broom.

He couldn't have done that on V's orders because, by his own admission, Snape did not know V was back.

So why would he have saved Harry (whom he didn't think much of) unless it was because Snape is really Dumbledore's man??

[Snow_Crystal]

Funnily enough that came up somewhere else on this forum when there was a discussion about life debts. I think that James saved Snape's life when Sirius and he told Snape to go to the Whomping Willow where a transformed Lupin would be. James backed out of it and saved Snape. Snape I guess didn't repay that debt to James and someone said that by saving Harry he was repaying his debt as it were...

I wonder what happens if you don't repay a life debt?

[Dutchess42]

I'd forgotten about the whomping willow thing. That's a possible reason for sure.

[Dutchess42]

I've just read a very compelling editorial here:

http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/editorials/edit-jcutler01.shtml

Which further persuades me that Snape is Dumbledore's man.

[Athena Appleton]

Remember also - a death eater would not have let Luna and Hermione live. He had every chance to kill them when he found them outside his door but chose instead to knock out the professor and ask them to attend to him. He did that to keep the girls out of harms way.

One of the most common sense things about getting out of a fort safely is not to kill people when you're in the center of it. The more people who know what you're doing, the more likely it is that you'll have to fight your way out. Snape was saving his own hide

But there were only the four of them there and he was not really in the "center" of things - he's below. Had he killed the professor, then sent Hermione and Luna into the room and killed them as well no one would have known.

Not if he's running from the scene of the crime after having killed Dumbledore. I don't think killing or not killing Luna or Hermione ever entered into his mind.

That assumes he knew what the task was. In my scenario he did not. I don't think it would have occurred to him that V would set a mere boy against Dumbledore. Had he known, then he would not have agreed as you say.

He knew it was a task Voldemort set, and that it was one at least Narcissa was sure would get Draco killed. Not to mention, it was something Narcissa had said even Voldemort (changed to "anyone else") had been able to complete. All this happened before the vow. He had enough information to realize it was something that should be gone over with Dumbledore (the person you seem to think he's "true" to) before swearing to the death that he would complete it.

As a good Leglimens, Snape must have known what she was asking him to do and from her, what Draco's task was - assuming Narcissa wasn't a good Occlumens of course.

Well, Occlumens is accomplished by hiding your emotions, something Narcissa clearly wasn't doing. But I wonder if Legimens really means you can tell what someone is going to ask of you? I thought it was to determine motives, emotions, fear, sympathy, distrust, etc... Apparently, memories are a part of that, but I don't think it allows you access to each and every thought, more to the generalization of thoughts. If I'm not mistaken, in OotP, when Snape was first explaining Legimens/Occlumency to Harry, he was somewhat disgusted by Harry's referral to it as "mind reading". That would be the main difference between Legimens and what we call mind-reading: that Legimens allows you to know the core emotions and feelings someone may be hiding, but not every thought.

As a good Leglimens, Snape must have known what she was asking him to do and from her, what Draco's task was - assuming Narcissa wasn't a good Occlumens of course.

I still maintain that he could have just as easily told Voldemort that Narcissa and Bellatrix told him they weren't even to mention it, he felt he needed to verify with it with him, if he died, Dumbledore would still be alive and Voldemort would have lost his spy, etc. All pretty convincing arguements, I think.

So why would he have saved Harry (whom he didn't think much of) unless it was because Snape is really Dumbledore's man??

That happened before Voldemort was back, Snape had a chance to be a spy for anyone, and the Order was re-established. Snape saved Harry's life then because he had always felt (resentfully) indebted to James, and saving Harry was a way to clear that debt in Snape's eyes.

I'd forgotten about the whomping willow thing. That's a possible reason for sure.

Dumbledore, Snape (and maybe Lupin or Sirius, I can't remember) tell us that's exactly how it happened.

[Claire]

Query: how do all these folks who are so convinced Snape's good even after everything that happened in HPB explain how he was able to take the Unbreakable Vow? And how does actually killing Dumbledore fit into the idea of Snape being good?

I really am not convinced that Snape is good, its just that I'm not convinced he's evil either. Right now enough facts can be found to persuade one of EITHER position. So, (as you have proved), even though there is sufficient evidence pointing to his guilt, I have to have faith in Dumbledore's decisions until it is proven to me that Snape is on Voldemort's side.

I think it is possible that Dumbledore thought Snape's position as spy was more important than his life. Dumbledore, knowing about Malfoy's plan (and perhaps Snape's oath- this to me is the most contradictory evidence against any theory of Snape being good, it was obvious that Snape had no way out of taking the oath but it does not seem that he even told Dumbledore about it), thought it likely that there may come a time where Snape was in a position where he must prove himself either way, and have Snape agree to prove himself to the Death Eaters so he is therefore, later on in the story, able to be in a position of complete betrayal.

[Dutchess42]

Mmmm. Food for thought surely.

What I plan to do is to go again through the books

A. Looking for possible horcruxes and info about Dumbledore's brother etc.
B. Consolidating my various lists of unanswered questions (like why did Snape never dine at headquarters in OoP)
C. Making a three column list with the center column things Snape does, the left column what his motive would be if he were V's man and the right column the motives were he DD's man.

If nothing else, at least I'll be well prepared by the time VII comes out!

I am sure doing this will make me feel like I am back in school

[dibble2]

I used to think Snape was still good. The common Snape is good theory has to do with Dumbledore knowing about the vow, not wanting Snape to die or Draco to become a murderer, and Snape's apparent unwillingness to fight any students, members of the order, or Harry. He also stopped other Death Eaters from torturing Harry. At any rate...the doubt is creeping in. Dumbledore knew he was important, and he knew he was the reason Voldemort had not attacked the school. I'm not sure that he could have done more good by dying than he could by staying alive. So I think that puts the "plan to die" theory into doubt. Also, who do you think is easier to fool? We know Dumbledore's been fooled before. Voldemort was living in the back of one of his teacher's heads and he didn't realize it. The Marauders became illegal, unregistered animagi under his nose, and Barty Crouch Jr. made him think that he was his old pal Moody. Dumbledore is smart and wise, but he could have made a mistake. Snape could have fooled him. On the other hand, we have Voldemort. He is widely regarded as the greatest legitimens of all time (By his Death Eaters, which at least makes him the second-greatest). Unlike Dumbledore however, he doesn't trust people. He's never had a friend or felt compassion (that we know of). If he had a hint that Snape might not be on his side, he'd kill him. Dumbledore couldn't do that. I really want Snape to be good, but I'm starting to think that isn't the case.

Whew, long post. Congratulations if you got to this point. One more thing...if Snape is acting for his on benefit; that is, not working for Voldemort or Dumbledore, but using his role as a spy to destroy them both...what a twist! I mean, how would it be after all these years of thinking Voldemort was the ultimate bad guy, through all the books...what if the final confrontation was actually with Snape?

[Person1]

For rowling to build a character that has a tortured past, a bad attitude, and well, a bit of a heart, and then make him completely evil? I dont think so... Voldemort is the main Villain, and Snape, the misunderstood character.

Things aren't ever what they seem in this book, a ring, is not just a ring, its a horcrux, ect.

[annachie]

When I read where Snape lives, it occurred to me: this could be one of those circumstances. "Spinner" meaning someone who spins a tale or a web of lies, and "end" naturally meaning the end. So the place where Snape lives, and the title of the chapter, means "the end of the lies." This is really the first time we see Snape's true colors.

It seems to me to be more part of the painting of Snapes background, which seems to be a main theme for the book. What occured to me is the old woollen mill areas of places like Belfast.

Narcissa hurried up a street called Spinner's End, over which the towering mill chimney seemed to ... ... as she passed boarded up and broken windows, ..

At the east end of town at the foot of the hill
there's a chimney so tall it says Belfast Mill.
But there's no smoke at all coming out of the stack
for the mill has shut down and is never coming back.

And the only tune I hear
is the sound of the wind
as she blows through the town
weave and spin weave and spin.

There's no children playing in the dark narrow streets
and the loom has shut down it's so quiet I can't sleep.

And the only tune I hear
is the sound of the wind
as she blows through the town
weave and spin weave and spin.

The mill has shut down 'twas the only life I know
tell me where will I go tell me where will I go.

And the only tune I hear
is the sound of the wind
as she blows through the town
weave and spin weave and spin.

I'm too old to work and I'm too young to die
tell me where will I go now my family and I.

And the only tune I hear
is the sound of the wind
as she blows through the town
weave and spin weave and spin.

At the east end of town at the foot of the hill
there's a chimney so tall it says Belfast Mill.
But there's no smoke at all coming out of the stack
for the mill has shut down and is never coming back.

And the only tune I hear
is the sound of the wind
as she blows through the town
weave and spin weave and spin.


Belfast Mill, the Furies

[Froggs]

[quote="Dutchess42
Remember also - a death eater would not have let Luna and Hermione live. He had every chance to kill them when he found them outside his door but chose instead to knock out the professor and ask them to attend to him. He did that to keep the girls out of harms way.

He also did no harm to any of the students nor to any of the Order of the Phoenix as he made his way up the tower.

That doesn't sound like a death eater to me.[/quote]

I may be wrong, but at that point in the story, Snape was clueless about what was going on. He was still protecting his cover story when he avoided doing harm to the students...and as I pointed out somewhere/sometime, he did indeed hurt Harry at the end of their confrontation.

[Enchanter]

i keep reading a lot of thories that involve dumbledore either knowing or not knowing of Snapes Unbreakable Vow. But isnt it made clear that DD doesnt know of the Vow when Malfoy tells him about it on the tower and DD tells him that of course Snape would have said that to keep up his cover or something of the sort?