Confrontation on the Astronomy Tower

[Aberforth]

DD himself said that due to his incredible brain, his mistakes were generally huge compared to normal people.

He knew Malfoy wasn't going to kill him, so I think he was playing for time in the hope that someone from the order would reach him.

Also, Harry is going to have to improve his duelling a lot if his is going to take on Snape and Voldemort. Snape deflected his spells easily.

But, on the point of Snape killing DD on his orders, there may be some evidence:

when Harry is trying to hex him, although he could just be mocking him, he is still trying to get Harry to cast his spell silently. I think this is going to be very important as LV and DD never spoke an incantation during their duel in OotP.

Harry calls him a coward, which Snape doesn't like at all. It could be that if he is working on DDs orders, he is actually been incredibly brave

Why did DD stun Harry when he was underneath his invisibility cloak if he had not planned for this all to happen? There was no need to do it and Harry could certainly have helped.

[Dacre]

I think I said this before in another thread - but I firmly believe Snape is still working for TOTP but had to kill dumbledore as DD believed Snape's position as spy was more important than DD's life.
Need to know what hold DD has over Snape tho - can't believe it's only what we've heard so far - he could easily have read Harry's mind to find out what the phropesy actually is.

Tho, I have also said, I have never trusted dumbledore - I think the biggest twist possible in the next book would be finding out he isn't all good.

[darkcloak]

Also, Harry is going to have to improve his duelling a lot if his is going to take on Snape and Voldemort. Snape deflected his spells easily.

But, on the point of Snape killing DD on his orders, there may be some evidence:

when Harry is trying to hex him, although he could just be mocking him, he is still trying to get Harry to cast his spell silently. I think this is going to be very important as LV and DD never spoke an incantation during their duel in OotP.

If you read the confrontation with Snape really carefully, Snape defeats all of Harry's spells really easily because he can read Harry's thoughts. Some are deflected before Harry can finish saying them (especially the last one which Snape made up).

Shutting his mind has to be priority for Harry next year, perhaps Snape's final lesson to him.

[thestral]

yup, i think one of the really important things is that harry becomes a more skilled wizard like in duelling and saying the spells silently. he has such raw power and potential but it needs to be refined, honed and enhanced by learning to focus it properly. which is my only misgiving about harry leaving hogwarts a year early, he could still learn so much more.

[Dacre]

I think he'll probably learn more by himself with time to practice defense + spells he will find useful against Voldermort, rather than time on other lessons not as useful.
I suspect he may get members of the Phoenix / teachers to help him too, and use books etc - he's gonna be pretty dedicated to finding the parts of V's soul too I reckon.

[Stumpy]

If he isnt made to stay at the school for a period of time he will obviously have strong connections with it! Its not as if people like Lupin are going to let him just go off and find the things all alone! (unless he's off with Tonks )

[werebane]

i dont think that he will go to school. but he will have much outside help besides ron and hermione such as for getting the horcruxes that remain.

[Snow_Crystal]

My first time to the forum - excellent subject!!

Just have to say that everyone seems to focus on what Dumbledore's hold on Snape was.

What about Harry's...

I vaguely recall that James and Sirius passed info to Snape which effectively led him to the Whomping Willow where Lupin was readying himself to transform etc, etc.

Lily showed him uncommon kindness (as a fellow muggle-born) and jumped in and prevented Snape from Death/being bitten.

By disclosing half of the prophecy to Voldemort, he betrayed her and caused her death. I am certain that in saving another wizard/witches life, that the saved witch/wizard owes a debt because the Saving Wizard has a claim on their life.

A debt which in Snape's case (and incidentally Wormtail's too...) has not been repaid. As Lily's offspring, Harry must therefore be owed...

I suspect that Lily and Snape had a special bond as a result of this incident, an affinity for both being muggle-borns and therefore became Potions friends. Hence the reason why Lily was so good at Potions.

I believe it is possible that Snape was directed to become a Death Eater by Dumbledore and that he had advised Snape that this would be the only way he could repay Lily in the future even though she would have to die first.

As much as I dislike him, Snape must be good as it's too obvious. Snape was never an outspoken student whilst at Hogwarts and always aspired to something more. In his early years, he came across as though he was friendless and always needing direction - direction probably given by Dumbledore.

I think the arguments Snape and Dumbledore had were because Dumbledore had advised him to kill him in this scenario predicted by Professor Trelawny. I also suspect that the reason Snape hesitated before killing Dumbledore were due to Leglimens and Occlumency reasons, i.e. Dumbledore giving final instructions.

This would explain why Snape was so clear to instruct Harry to not use the dark curses (sorry it escapes me at the moment what they're actually called). I think both Snape and Wormtail will show their worth before the end.

To the person earlier in this message board that secretly hopes Dumbledore's still alive, I think the final proof is the fact that his portrait has appeared on the wall in his old office... This may come into play in the last book I suspect.

It will certainly be interesting to see how the final installment pans out, I can't believe we have to wait another two years but at least we will probably see 2 more films in that time.

PS Sorry this is so long - when I get started I can't stop!

[werebane]

this is sorta on the subject, but what was the page where DD and snape argued. i just dont remember that part for some reason.

[Snow_Crystal]

Further to my previous posting, it could be that Lily was the excellent one in Potions and Snape learned from her...

What I want to know is why it is important that Harry actually learnt more about potions - this must mean this will come into play in the last book surely.

[werebane]

well, maybe ron (again) or hermione will get poisoned and it will be up to him to save them.

[Lelie]

I also suspect that the reason Snape hesitated before killing Dumbledore were due to Leglimens and Occlumency reasons, i.e. Dumbledore giving final instructions.

that's a pretty interesting thought... hadn't crossed my mind before then. if that is true, it would be nice to know what the instructions were.

as for lily being so wonderful at potions, i kind of feel as if that might just be a red herring of jkrs. she's spend so much time reinforcing the fact that lily's want was good for charms that it seems strange that she would just all of a sudden be fantastic at potions. i think it more likely that snape did have a little crush on lily (as was somewhat evident with his harsh reaction in OOTP when she stood up for him) and he tried to help her out there. obviosuly he was talented in that area... more so than james. maybe it was his way of showing her that he was good at something too? i dunno... just a thought.

i also believe that dd is really dead... but the phoenix thing gives me pause as well. for heaven's sake, his patronus is a phoenix!! i'm sure fawkes will have a large part to play in book 7, maybe on dd's behalf?

[thestral]

one thing i wondered was that it seemed like fawkes had died along with DD. but i thought phoenixes were immortal. unless like eleves in LOTR can a phoenix only die through heartbreak? did i read that or am i just imagining it. i don't know , but is fawkes still alive, cos if he is, he would be a good companion for harry, they always seemed to get on well, so i had thought that fawkes might stay with harry.

[dibble2]

To me it almost sounded like Snape was giving Harry advice when he was blocking his spells. Telling him, "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed!" Well, if he couldn't hit Snape, he doesn't have much chance against Voldemort unless he takes Snapes advice (or taunts, if he's really a Death Eater).

[thestral]

i know, harry has such power and potential. but he needs to just listen!!! i really wished sometimes that he would just learn to listen to sanpe's advice, cos he does give good tips if harry would stop being too proud and stubborn to listen, he is a very good teacher and he could learn alot.