Snape's cover should be blown

[Lone_Buck]

In the first book, Snape continually confronted Quirell. Such as in the forest. Now, if Quirell talked to Voldemort, or Voldemort was on his head at the time, he would know that Snape was trying to prevent his return. Surely Quirell would have talked to Voldemort about his problems and altercations with snape. Therefore, i don't think snape can be acting as a spy for the OotP. He'd have to be a complete deatheater, which i doubt because of the lord's unforgiving tendencies, which would mean he's all Order. But his job can't be that of a spy, so what is he doing. MY HEAD HURTS.

[Won Wheezy]

Yeh, you are right - I have thought about that too. I don't really find a way that Snape could deceive Voldie for such a long time without him getting suspicious. Also, why would Malfoy hold him in such high esteem, because if Voldie knows about Snape betraying him, so would the DE's.

[Alice I]

This point has also bothered me. I do however believe that Snape is currently acting as a spy for the Order.
The only explaination I could come up with was this:

The conversation between Snape and Quirrel in the fobidden forest does not actually reveal Snape as a good guy. If anything it really makes it sound like he wants to get the stone himself.

Below in a shadoy clearing stood Snape, but he wasn't alone. Quirrell was there too. Harry couln't make out the look on his face, but he was stuttering worse than ever. Harry strained to catch what they were saying.
"...d-don't know why you wanted t-t-to meet here of all p-places, Severus..."
"Oh, I thought we'd keep this private," said Snape, his voice icy "Students aren't supposed to know about the Sorcer's Stone after all."
Harry leaned forward. Quirrell was mumbeling something. Snape interupted him.
"Have you found out how to get past that beast of Hagrid's yet?"
"B-b-but Severus, I---"
"You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell," said Snape, taking a step toward him.
"I-I don't know what you mean."
An owl hooted loudly, and Harry nearly fell out of the tree. He stedied himself in time to hear Snape say "...your little bit of hocus-pocus. I'm waiting."
"Bbut I d-d-don't..."
"Very well," Snape cut in "We'll have another little chat soon, when you've had time to think things over and decided where your loyalties lie."
He threw his cloak over his head and strode out of the clearing.

I think what it will amout to is that Snape has been very cautious with what he has said to everyone including DD. In the exchange above the fact that he is actually trying to protect the stone is not at all evident. The only thing that I can not reconcile is:

Harry couldn't take it in. This couldn't be true, it couldn't.
"But Snape tried to kill me!"
"No, no, no. I tried to kill you. Your friend Miss Granger accidently knocked me over as she rushed to set fire to Snape at that Quidditch match. She broke my eye contact with you. Another few seconds and I'd have got you off that broom. I'd have managed it before then if Snape hadn't been muttering a countercurse, trying to save you."

At this point Voldemort is in possesion of Quirrell and states that Snape tried to save Harry but that still doesn't exactly blow his cover. There could be some reason Snape gave for his actions on the field that day.
*Shrugs* I do think that Snape is spying for the Order but I also still don't know how to reconcile these facts that counter that throry. I guess we will have to wait and see what JKR tells us about it.

[Athena Appleton]

I believe Snape is a spy, but some different reasons that have already been talked about...

With Quirrell... I don't think Snape realized Quirrell was actually trying to get the stone for Voldemort. So even if Voldemort was possessing Quirrell by that time (and I'll get into this in a moment) he would have seen Snape as an annoying pest at most. Snape isn't trying to keep Voldemort from taking it. Snape is trying to keep Quirrell from taking it.

But I think I should mention that I seriously don't think Voldy was possessing Quirrell at that time. Yes, I think he was forcing Quirrell to do stuff, but he himself says that he "eventually" possessed Quirrell, which gives the impression that he wasn't possessing him from the beginning. I think a clue that he was just still at the giving-orders stage at that time was that after this scene, Harry and Co. hear Quirrell crying and begging Voldemort... they assume he's crying and pleading with Snape, but he tells us it was Voldy. Voldy got sick of his crying and pleading and that's when he finally possessed Quirrell. So as far as the conversation between Snape and Quirrell, I think Quirrell may have mentioned to Voldy that Snape is stopping him, but Snape's only motives are to keep Quirrell from taking the stone.

There's a reason Snape is the one who has to teach Harry Occlumency. With his job as spy, he has to use it on a 100% of the time thing. And for extra precaution he uses the pensieve when he's in the presence of Voldy (or the possibility of there of Voldy finding out what he's thinking). That's how he's able to be a spy.

I personally think that the reason Harry was able to access the memories in Snape's head is because Snape keeps them there as a cover, if you will. Snape hides thoughts that are important (what's up with the Order, fears of being a spy, personal feelings and that sort of thing) and keeps other bad memories at the forefront to help him keep up the cover of the angry, cruel teacher. Not that I think he needs help, but I think that's why his worst memory is in the pensieve, and other lesser bad memories are so easily accessible. Either he keeps it there to keep from accidentally doing magic out of anger (and we know it can happen, even to good wizards) or because he doesn't want to give Harry the idea that he was powerless to stop James and Sirius.

[Alice I]

But I think I should mention that I seriously don't think Voldy was possessing Quirrell at that time. Yes, I think he was forcing Quirrell to do stuff, but he himself says that he "eventually" possessed Quirrell, which gives the impression that he wasn't possessing him from the beginning.

Which time are you refering to here?
In the forest with Snape? Then I agree with you that Voldemort was not yet possesing Quirrell.
Or
The time in the chamber and the conversation with Harry; because Voldemort was in the back of Quirrell's head for this conversation.

I also agree with you on the fact that Snape is keeping strong cover memories at the forfront of his mind to deceive someone looking.

[Athena Appleton]

Sorry, I should clarify better.

I dont' think Voldy was possessing Quirrell in the forest with Snape. Voldy was obviously possessing Quirrell at the end, when Voldy is sticking out of the back of Quirrell's head.

[Evil Wizard Petting Zoo]

Geez, this is confusing. Ok, I think that longer passage alicei posted could be interpreted in 2 ways: good or bad. The first few times I read it, it sounded to me like Snape was bad. But I was actually reading that very same passage last night and I can see how Snape is trying to keep Quirrel from the stone. Its definately confusing the first time because we all had it in our heads that Snape was the bad guy so we were already biased.

I don't think Voldy was on Quirrel's head at the time either, or else Snape would have been done for.

[Athena Appleton]

Yeah... I think that's the most likely thing, that Voldy just hadn't possessed Quirrell at that time. However I don't think Snape would be done for then, even if Voldy knew Snape was trying to keep Quirrell from getting the stone... Because, after all, Snape is trying to stop QUIRRELL (not Voldy, since he doesn't know Voldy's involved) from getting the stone...

[Enchanter]

Who are the loyalties snape talks about. Its sounds like dumbledore to me

[Alice I]

Who are the loyalties snape talks about. Its sounds like dumbledore to me

That's the lovely thing about the way JKR writes Snape.
That phrasing could mean so many different things.
That is the mark of a good spy. Everything that Snape says can be taken to mean different things to different people. He has a tendency to speak cryptically and I believe that that is on purpose to protect his cover from what ever direction is necessary!

[Athena Appleton]

Yeah... While I agree with what you're saying, I feel it's important to remember that this is WAY before Voldy comes back, so it doesn't really matter that Snape is talking about loyalties to Dumbledore. It's too easy to assume that Snape knows everything just because we know something... He doesn't know Quirrell is working on Voldy's orders. So anything he says to Quirrell, whether Voldy is there or not, other than "I'm no longer a Death Eater, I turned spy long ago" is safe, because it's normal things that anyone would say, assuming they don't know Voldy is trying to make a return.

[Groo]

guys, the 1st book was written in 1997 thats 6 years before the 5th book
there is no way that Rowling had planned for Snape being a spy that long back. so i think the ambiguity about Voldemort knowing Snape was stopping quirrell is just a flaw that has crept in.

. Assuming that snape returned to Voldemort again on Dumbledore's orders what must he have told him? that "he was still faithful to Voldy and would spy on dumbledore by staying as a teacher in hogwarts." thats the only way one can explain that snape is currently alive and in hogwarts.

so if voldemort accepts this reason he surely would have believed snape wasnt DD's spy in the 1st book and he would have tried to contact snape immediately after arriving in hogwarts. thats why i think its a flaw

PS - to contradict myself Voldy says to the DEs on his return at the graveyard on seeing gaps in their group "this one i believe has left us forever (meaning Karkaroff) and this one has betrayed us.he wont be spared (now who was he talking about then????? )

[Athena Appleton]

guys, the 1st book was written in 1997 thats 6 years before the 5th book
there is no way that Rowling had planned for Snape being a spy that long back. so i think the ambiguity about Voldemort knowing Snape was stopping quirrell is just a flaw that has crept in.

*sigh* everytime someone new comes on here, they have to be educated... j/k

Rowling's been working on the Harry Potter books for close to 20 years (says so in the interview that's a DVD extra on CoS). She had the major plotline figured out before she ever began the first book. Little indescrepancies are to be expected, but major plotlines, like Snape being a spy, were planned long before P/SS was ever written.

. Assuming that snape returned to Voldemort again on Dumbledore's orders what must he have told him? that "he was still faithful to Voldy and would spy on dumbledore by staying as a teacher in hogwarts." thats the only way one can explain that snape is currently alive and in hogwarts.

Actually, I think that's pretty much exactly what he told him... either that, or he sold Voldemort on the importance of molding young minds to the Voldy cause. If that's what Voldy thinks he's doing, it makes total sense that he do things that are apparently pro-Dumbledore, anti-Voldy, if he wants to keep that spot as a teacher at Hogwarts.

so if voldemort accepts this reason he surely would have believed snape wasnt DD's spy in the 1st book and he would have tried to contact snape immediately after arriving in hogwarts. thats why i think its a flaw

Snape wasn't a spy until GoF. There wasn't a need for a spy until GoF. Snape was a not-nice-good-guy, stopping Quirrell from getting the Sorcerer's Stone. He didn't realize he was stopping Voldy from getting the Sorcerer's Stone. And, before his return in GoF, I don't think Voldy was going to take any chances by revealing himself to anyone who for 10 years had been in close proxemity (sp?) with Dumbledore.

PS - to contradict myself Voldy says to the DEs on his return at the graveyard on seeing gaps in their group "this one i believe has left us forever (meaning Karkaroff) and this one has betrayed us.he wont be spared (now who was he talking about then????? )

Ugh...

What if the cowardly one who will pay (doesn't necessarily say he'll be killed... maybe tortured) is Snape, the one who has left him forever is Karkaroff (Karkaroff will be killed), and the faithful servant is Crouch, Jr.

If you read that paragraph carefully, it says that the one too cowardly to show up will pay (Karkaroff or Snape; "will pay" sounds like they'll be killed, but maybe not), the one who he believes has left forever will be killed (Karkaroff or Snape; no question about this guy's fate) and the faithful one (Crouch Jr.)

Now, when I first read this, I obviously thought Karkaroff was the coward and Snape would be killed. But I don't think Voldy would let Snape live this long. I think what happened after Harry returned was Snape went to Voldy's side, said "You know, I can be of great use to you at Hogwarts, but I couldn't leave right then, it would have looked suspicious, but here I am now" (he would have looked like a coward for not showing up) and then supposedly offered his services to Voldy, either as a spy, or just as someone to supposedly influence students to join Voldy's cause. I do think there was some punishment since Snape didn't return immediately.

Karkaroff, I believe, is the one who will die. He turned yellow-bellied and handed over as many names in court as he could to save his own skin. He betrayed Voldy and the Death Eaters.

Karkaroff left forever. Karkaroff is to be killed. Snape was a coward. Snape paid for his "cowardice" and is now (supposedly, but not really) back in the fold.

[Groo]

Rowling's been working on the Harry Potter books for close to 20 years (says so in the interview that's a DVD extra on CoS). She had the major plotline figured out before she ever began the first book. Little indescrepancies are to be expected, but major plotlines, like Snape being a spy, were planned long before P/SS was ever written.

thanks for informing me Athena. i didnt know that. but Rowling must have been quite brave to anticipate that her books would become so popular and the publishers would publish her subsequent books. imagine if PS had flopped! the whole world of HP would have died in her mind . but mind you , she would have known she was writing something special as soon as she finalised the whole story ( Really Groo!! how could you even think of the contrary?
*whacks himself*

Snape wasn't a spy until GoF. There wasn't a need for a spy until GoF.

but didnt Dumbledore say at the hearing of Crouch that snape turned spy at great personal risk during Voldy's peak?

[Athena Appleton]

About her being brave, I agree. I do think that she knew she had something special, and I know she's had drafts of all the books (yup, even six and seven) from the very beginning (as in, before P/SS was published) so I would imagine the publishers early on told her they'd do all seven books.

I should have clarified about what I meant about Snape just now turning spy. I meant he was a spy, but in the 10 years or so when there wasn't much need for spies, in the short time of peace, he wasn't a spy. He became a spy again in GoF. So he wasn't doing spy-work in P/SS, CoS, PoA, or until the very very end of GoF.